I would point out that I do not expect unsaved people to behave like saved people. They will live in an ungodly manner because they do not have Christ. I don't expect them to do otherwise.
Do you mean here or in real life? There are many here who claimed to be "saved" who act like heathen.
And then there is you.....a very sweet, kind man.
I think what the poster MAY have meant is that to those of us who are truly born-again, we have a new nature, and have the power to overcome sin.
The unsaved do not, and are still servants to their old sinful nature.
Hmmm, it must vary from person to person. I was a quiet, calm, unassuming baby, always respectful of my elders... until my parents baptized me. My head came out of the baptism bowl with a look of ultimate surprise on my face, I looked the bishop square in the eye and blew an angry raspberry at him.
What was Stephen saying about the genetic fallacy?
This is maybe one of those areas which Victor Stenger thinks should be measurable empirically. We should be able to see, and measure, the differences between believers and non-believers in this respect. Or maybe not, because it isn't the differences in action that count, but the differences in motive.
Christians would have us believe that everything they do is for the glory of God, and that everything that non-believers do is for the glory of themselves, even if the acts are identical. Either way, the act of helping others is incidental. Taken to its conclusion, it's impossible to help others for their sake. This is a huge contradiction at the heart of Christianity, as their claims to morality don't have a moral basis, at least in terms of how most of us understand morality.
SLG illustrates this in her response. Now I have no doubt that, notwithstanding I don't believe that any of us can be described as truly good or truly bad, she is a better person than I am. The same goes for Gringo. But how she can describe Gringo as a "sweet, kind man" who is a servant to his "old, sinful, nature" is beyond me. The only way around it is to claim that God sometimes uses some of us who don't believe for his own moral purposes. But there the contradiction rears its head again, in another way.
I'm as thick-skinned as any on this forum, and I'm more interested in what Christians think than what they think of me. So I don't get at all upset about any of the comments directed towards people like me. But I do think that those people are unfairly maligned, and the best you can say is that it's done unthinkingly. Seriously, what do the Christians make of someone like T-Bone, who said to Shiloh regarding his promotion of physical child abuse that he would "treat him like an unbeliever". It's not lovely knowing that there are certain people who view us, as a group, slightly below those who would promote physical child abuse.
I should add that, as far as I was concerned, it was the clearly immoral nature of God-worship coupled with the concomitant claims of morality, that set me on the path that got me to where I am today.
__________________ The only position that leaves me with no cognitive dissonance is atheism. It is not a creed. Death is certain, replacing both the siren-song of Paradise and the dread of Hell. Life on this earth, with all its mystery and beauty and pain, is then to be lived far more intensely: we stumble and get up, we are sad, confident, insecure, feel loneliness and joy and love. There is nothing more; but I want nothing more.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali
Last edited by Duncan Ferguson; 11-05-2009 at 08:45 AM.
I think what the poster MAY have meant is that to those of us who are truly born-again, we have a new nature, and have the power to overcome sin.
The unsaved do not, and are still servants to their old sinful nature.
Just my opinion.
What is meant by "have the power to overcome sin?"
Does that mean that you have the ability to not sin? Is it within your power to live in such a way that you do not sin?
__________________
__________________
"And God said, you are responsible for the fish of the sea,
and the fowl of the air, and every living thing that moveth upon the earth."
What is meant by "have the power to overcome sin?"
Does that mean that you have the ability to not sin? Is it within your power to live in such a way that you do not sin?
__________________
Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Romans 6:12-13 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Romans 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
I know that I cannot live in sinless perfection until I get to Heaven.
But I no longer SERVE my sinful flesh. I CAN choose to do right.
I know that I cannot live in sinless perfection until I get to Heaven.
But I no longer SERVE my sinful flesh. I CAN choose to do right.
.
Hold on here: you are not suggesting that Christians are the only ones who have the capability of doing right, are you? Are Christians the only ones who are not slaves to their "sinful flesh?"
__________________
__________________
"And God said, you are responsible for the fish of the sea,
and the fowl of the air, and every living thing that moveth upon the earth."
Hold on here: you are not suggesting that Christians are the only ones who have the capability of doing right, are you? Are Christians the only ones who are not slaves to their "sinful flesh?"
But I do think that those people are unfairly maligned, and the best you can say is that it's done unthinkingly. Seriously, what do the Christians make of someone like T-Bone, who said to Shiloh regarding his promotion of physical child abuse that he would "treat him like an unbeliever". It's not lovely knowing that there are certain people who view us as, as a group, slightly below those who would promote physical child abuse.
Duncan, that is a great point about us Christians. Being of dualistic natures, we tend to try to evaluate the right and wrong in every situation. Rather than 'being' Christian, we tend to get wrapped up in 'acting' Christian and in so doing, stereotype both Christians and non-Christians alike.
I will be honest with you, I fail tremendously at this but I hope to get to the point where I treat everyone (to a point) as I would treat Jesus, regardless of whether one is a believer or not.
In her song Wide Eyed, Nichole Nordeman writes lyrics that provoke me to thought:
Quote:
When I met him on a sidewalk
He was preaching to a mailbox
Down on 16th Avenue
And he told me he was Jesus
Sent from Jupiter to free us
With a bottle of tequila and one shoe
He raged about repentance
He finished every sentence
With a promise that the end was close at hand
I didn't even try to understand
He left me wide eyed in disbelief and disillusion
I was tongue tied, drawn by my conclusions
So I turned and walked away
And laughed at what he had to say
Then casually dismissed him as a fraud
I forgot he was created in the image of my God
When I met her in a bookstore
She was browsing on the first floor
Through a yoga magazine
And she told me in her past life
She was some plantation slave's wife
She had to figure out what that might mean
She believes the healing powers of her crystals
Can bring balance and new purpose to her life
Sounds nice
She left me wide eyed in disbelief and disillusion
I was tongue tied, drawn by my conclusions
So I turned and walked away
And laughed at what she had to say
Then casually dismissed her as a fraud
I forgot she was created in the image of my God
Not so long ago, a man from Galilee
Fed thousands with His bread and His theology
And the truth He spoke
Quickly became the joke
Of educated, self-inflated Pharisees like me
And they were wide eyed in disbelief and disillusion
They were tongue tied, drawn by their conclusions
Would I have turned and walked away
And laughed at what He had to say
And casually dismissed Him as a fraud
Unaware that I was staring at the image of my God?
__________________
~ Dan
Real Christianity should be identified by its production of spiritual fruit*, not religious nuts.
*love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control
My post will probably be viewed as useless, but I'm going to post it anyway and no doubt get slammed for it....
I do not understand this either…I’m just being honest. My husband is an agnostic and he is one of most stand-up guys you will ever meet…better then a few Christians I know actually, but that’s my personal opinion having been married to him for twelve years.
The views and opinions expressed on this web site are not necessarily those of the Fighting Fundamental Forums management. This is an open and unmoderated forum. The content of each post is the sole responsibility of the poster. Participants are expected to follow the simple rules of the forum. Within these wide parameters various views are welcome to be expressed freely.
The college names used on the FundamentalForums.com web site are trademarks of their respective schools. The forums are not officially sanctioned by any of the institutions represented.
The "Saved" and the "Unsaved"
Linear Mode
