I started not to respond (which I do alot when I don't want to offend). I've done something that makes it hard to discuss theological issues (like politics) with you: I've become your freind.
And SLG's.
But I woudln't be much of a freind if I didn't let you know what I was thinking.
I truly don't understand and I hope you will help me to.
If you and SLG have been given the power to overcome sin, and if, indeed, you have a new nature that I don't have, then why can't you live a sinless life: if you have the power to overcome sin.
If you can't live a sinless life, then how are you in a better position than the non believer?
I don't understand.
And I ask you this in the nicest way I know how.
.
Gringo,
Please don't worry about offending me. I'd rather be able to talk about things honestly and openly than have to tread on eggshells.
Smellin Coffee gave a good answer above: I'm grateful for folks like him that have the ability to explain the Bible so well.
I have said this before, and it bears repeating here. I once was a professing Christian. I am now a complete atheist. I truly feel that I am a kinder and gentler and more tolerant individual now than I was then. I am so much more happy now than I was then. I would never undo the decision I made to divorce myself from my previously held beliefs.
The truth is, I believe that I transgressed more when I was a Christian than I have since I became an atheist. Does that qualify me as having been "delivered from the power of sin?"
For me there can never be any going back.
Let's see how "tolerant" 70 is - He was delivered by UPS or Federal Express or a combination of the two "FED-UPS"
Enjoyed this conv. I can relate to much of it - mainly because of some of my relatives (not kidding) and Jack Hyles. But I truly believe that I am more spiritual now than I was when I was not as spiritual as I am now.
I believe that one day, most of us will have to say a word that God has never said: "OOPS!"
Bro. Ott
__________________
The one great fallacy of fundamentalism is that we actually believe that while we are confessing the sins of others that the Lord will not look as intently on our own.
As I have gotten older, I have tended to become less dogmatic over certain issues: "(1 Cor 2:2 KJV) For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified."
The New York Yankees have just proven themselves to be the best baseball team this year. They had the 'power' to win every game, yet they didn't. In the same way, Christians have the potential to win every 'sin battle' but we don't always use that potential correctly, because we are still flawed.
The difference between the Christian and the non-Christian is one's sins are covered over by God's grace while the other's sins are not.
The Christian and the non-Christian sin alike -- the difference being that the Christian's sin is covered over, whereas the non-Christian's sin is not covered over.
In other words, the Christian is as apt to commit an act of sin as the non-Christian. In this way there is no difference between being a Christian and not being a Christian.
This is what SC has said, to which Annette agreed with admiration.
Hm.
__________________
__________________
"And God said, you are responsible for the fish of the sea,
and the fowl of the air, and every living thing that moveth upon the earth."
The New York Yankees have just proven themselves to be the best baseball team this year. They had the 'power' to win every game, yet they didn't. In the same way, Christians have the potential to win every 'sin battle' but we don't always use that potential correctly, because we are still flawed.
Then what good was their power: if they didn't win every game? How were they any better than the team that didn't win every game?
They BOTH lost games.
It's just a bunch of words.
If the New York Yankees CAN win every game then why don't they? Didn't they try hard enough? Wasn't it their goal to win? Didn't they WANT to win? I repeat: if they could win over the team that COULDN'T win, why didn't they win.
Shame on them. Which team should be ashamed more?
True, we cannot live a sinless life.
But why CAN'T you if you have the POWER over sin and your sin nature now that you have the "grace" of God?
The difference between the Christian and the non-Christian is one's sins are covered over by God's grace while the other's sins are not.
Once again, the "saved" is different than the "unsaved": so why can't you behave differently. Y'all have said that you have a power we don't have. You have said that you have a "grace" we don't have. Excelsior has said that the "unsaved" can't act like the saved.
And yet, each of you have said that still, at the end of the day, you, in essence, are not any different than us: YOU SIN.
Does this give the right for the Christian to act out in sin? No. Paul addressed this in Romans that though we have immunity for our sin, we still are not to live to sin.
I'm your friend too. And so I hope you'll not be mad at me. But I just don't see it.
It's all just a bunch of words.
At the end of the day, you Christians sin just like we do. You have no power that we don't have OR YOU WOULD USE IT.
And if you really do have a power we don't have and you don't use it, you are worse than us.
And I don't think you are worse than us. You are just one of us: human beings
But why CAN'T you if you have the POWER over sin and your sin nature now that you have the "grace" of God?
Because we choose not to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gringo
Once again, the "saved" is different than the "unsaved": so why can't you behave differently. Y'all have said that you have a power we don't have. You have said that you have a "grace" we don't have. Excelsior has said that the "unsaved" can't act like the saved.
We Christians should behave differently, but not simply in action, but in attitude. We should be putting on the servant-attitude that Jesus demonstrated and even though we have the power to do so, we choose not to do it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gringo
I'm your friend too. And so I hope you'll not be mad at me. But I just don't see it.
I've never been mad at you, Gringo! You are brutally honest and I appreciate that. But I know you don't see it but I wish I knew how to pinpoint it without using Christianeze...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gringo
It's all just a bunch of words.
For what purpose?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gringo
At the end of the day, you Christians sin just like we do.
That is correct.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gringo
You have no power that we don't have OR YOU WOULD USE IT.
Not always, to our shame.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gringo
And if you really do have a power we don't have and you don't use it, you are worse than us.
And I don't think you are worse than us. You are just one of us: human beings
And that's all you are.
I don't know about a better/worse scenario because that would require judgment which I am not capable of making, nor is it my place. But I do believe that To whom much is given, much is required. How it all plays out in the end, I'm not really completely sure. But I do believe that whatever happens, grace will cover me.
__________________
~ Dan
Real Christianity should be identified by its production of spiritual fruit*, not religious nuts.
*love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control
The Christian and the non-Christian sin alike -- the difference being that the Christian's sin is covered over, whereas the non-Christian's sin is not covered over.
In other words, the Christian is as apt to commit an act of sin as the non-Christian. In this way there is no difference between being a Christian and not being a Christian.
This is what SC has said, to which Annette agreed with admiration.
Hm.
__________________
Nope, nope, nope = The "Covering" of sin is an OT teaching - after the deadh of the Testator, the sin is not just covered but washed away and the sinner is justified:
(Rev 1:5 KJV) And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
(Heb 9:16 KJV) For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
PS - I got a note (not from you) complaining that I used Scripture to back up every thing I say - I asked him for "Suggestions?" - He has never answered.
Thanks,
Bro. Ott
__________________
The one great fallacy of fundamentalism is that we actually believe that while we are confessing the sins of others that the Lord will not look as intently on our own.
As I have gotten older, I have tended to become less dogmatic over certain issues: "(1 Cor 2:2 KJV) For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified."
"I've never been mad at you, Gringo! You are brutally honest and I appreciate that. But I know you don't see it but I wish I knew how to pinpoint it without using Christianeze..."
Go ahead. I spoke that language for many years.
By the way, I was looking through my college annual the other day, and I saw a Barber. I think it is your pastor. I have forgotten his first name but I think I remember you telling me he went to Temple.
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