did we not already establish that to be in the spirit, the Holy Spirit must indwell you? So doesn't indwellment precede faith?
Yes, but once again those verses are addressing those who already believe, and are in the Spirit. There is no mention of when that indwelling occured. Whether at regeneration or at belief. If you think you see a time line in the Romans verses, then great. I have looked and looked and don't see any time line in those verses. The time line you see in those verses disagree with John 7:39, IMO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight
You are assuming the passage reads "they that believe on him should receive
No assumption since that is exactly what John 7:39 says ... this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive:
What will they receive?
Answer - the Spirit
Who receives the Spirit?
Answer - they which believe
That's quite clear to me. Therefore once again we will just have to agree to disagree on this. I cannot find a single verse of Scripture which places the indwelling immediately upon regeneration.
Yes, but once again those verses are addressing those who already believe, and are in the Spirit. There is no mention of when that indwelling occured. Whether at regeneration or at belief. If you think you see a time line in the Romans verses, then great. I have looked and looked and don't see any time line in those verses.
Quite simply, you are stating that we can be in the spirit without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. That is incompatible with Romans 8:9. Romans 8:9 is an if-then statement.
Premise: If the Spirit indwells you.
Conclusion: Then you are not in the flesh.
The connection is that it is the indwelling of the Spirit which enables us to live in the spirit rather than the flesh. The actuality of the conclusion logically depends upon whether or not the condition stated in the premise has been fulfilled. Indwellment produces our spiritual nature/capacity to believe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WV
The time line you see in those verses disagree with John 7:39, IMO.
The onus is on you to show that my interpretation provided above is incompatible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WV
No assumption since that is exactly what John 7:39 says ... this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive:
What will they receive?
Answer - the Spirit
Who receives the Spirit?
Answer - they which believe
When will they who will believe receive it? This question is not answered by Jesus in this passage.
Quite simply, you are stating that we can be in the spirit without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. That is incompatible with Romans 8:9. Romans 8:9 is an if-then statement.
I never said a person can be in the spirit without the Holy Spirit indwelling. If I had, then yes that would be incompatible. All I said was is that the Romans verses are addressing believers who have past tense been regenerated, and are present tense indwelt. Yet those verses don't address the time line issue. Regeneration isn't even mentioned there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight
When will they who will believe receive it? This question is not answered by Jesus in this passage.
God bless.
John 7:39 this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believeon him should receive: ..... Those who believe receive - not my words. The believing precedes the receiving.
I never said a person can be in the spirit without the Holy Spirit indwelling. If I had, then yes that would be incompatible. All I said was is that the Romans verses are addressing believers who have past tense been regenerated, and are present tense indwelt. Yet those verses don't address the time line issue. Regeneration isn't even mentioned there.
Can one be in the spirit apart from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?
Quote:
Originally Posted by WV
John 7:39 this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believeon him should receive: ..... Those who believe receive - not my words.
I agree with you up to here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WV
The believing precedes the receiving.
Again, you are reading into the passage the following: "Those who believe receive [because they believe]. Instead, I understand it to be "those who believe receive [such that they believe].
Can one be in the spirit apart from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?
No, let me repeat myself - "I never said a person can be in the spirit without the Holy Spirit indwelling."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight
Again, you are reading into the passage the following: "Those who believe receive [because they believe]. Instead, I understand it to be "those who believe receive [such that they believe].
No my friend, if anyone is adding presuppositions to John 7:39 it would be you since ("such that they believe") is your added esegesis to that text. The text clearly says "those who believe receive" Another sentence using the exact same structure would be; "they that look see" The looking precedes the seeing in the same way the believing precedes the receiving.
No, let me repeat myself - "I never said a person can be in the spirit without the Holy Spirit indwelling."
So then we're in the flesh if we're not indwelled. Now that that fact is perfectly clear, how can you believe that one believes prior to being indwelled? How can one who is in the flesh believe, given what Paul writes in Romans 8:7-8?
Quote:
Originally Posted by WV
No my friend, if anyone is adding presuppositions to John 7:39 it would be you since ("such that they believe") is your added esegesis to that text.
I'm not adding it. I understand that it can be interpreted in more than one way. But as this is your dogmatic proof text, you have to show how my interpretation would be impossible. Otherwise, I can just defer my beliefs to clearer passages, like Romans 8:7-9.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WV
The text clearly says "those who believe receive" Another sentence using the exact same structure would be; "they that look see" The looking precedes the seeing in the same way the believing precedes the receiving.
"They that look see" also does not establish whether seeing precedes or proceeds from looking. All it means is that he who looks will also see. It doesn't specify when such takes place.
So then we're in the flesh if we're not indwelled. Now that that fact is perfectly clear, how can you believe that one believes prior to being indwelled? How can one who is in the flesh believe, given what Paul writes in Romans 8:7-8?
I'm not adding it. I understand that it can be interpreted in more than one way. But as this is your dogmatic proof text, you have to show how my interpretation would be impossible. Otherwise, I can just defer my beliefs to clearer passages, like Romans 8:7-9.
"They that look see" also does not establish whether seeing precedes or proceeds from looking. All it means is that he who looks will also see. It doesn't specify when such takes place.
Were never going to agree on this so lets just agree to disagree.
I just ordered a new book on this topic. It's sounds interesting. Below is info on the book.
Spiritual Birthline: Understanding How We Experience the New Birth. By Stephen E. Smallman. Wheaton, IL: Crossway Books, 2006. 171 pp.
Smallman’s thesis is that spiritual birth is like physical birth. . . . Conception in the physical realm corresponds to life beginning in the spiritual realm. Pregnancy corresponds to “effectual calling.” Delivery, a new baby crying, corresponds to conversion: faith and repentance.
Sounds sort of like what I have been stating.
Nevertheless, this is should be interesting to read.
I just ordered a new book on this topic. It's sounds interesting. Below is info on the book.
Spiritual Birthline: Understanding How We Experience the New Birth. By Stephen E. Smallman. Wheaton, IL: Crossway Books, 2006. 171 pp.
Smallman’s thesis is that spiritual birth is like physical birth. . . . Conception in the physical realm corresponds to life beginning in the spiritual realm. Pregnancy corresponds to “effectual calling.” Delivery, a new baby crying, corresponds to conversion: faith and repentance.
Sounds sort of like what I have been stating.
Nevertheless, this is should be interesting to read.
Well, I have received the above book, and have read about 1/3 of it now, and it is obvious that Stephen E. Smallman, who has been a Reformed Pastor for over 40 years is convinced by Scripture and subjective conversion experiences that regeneration and conversion do not take place simultaneously as many believe. Pastor Smallman even believes that from the time God regenerates a person until a person actually becomes converted can be a span of days, weeks, months or in other instances can possibly take years before actual conversion occurs.
Therefore Pastor Smallman's view co-incides with my own personal view on this topic, as well as with my understanding of Scripture which has been confirmed by me through my own subjective conversion experience.
More on this later after I finish reading this book.
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