I don't agree with your interpretation of 2 Peter 3:9. Too often people that believe the doctrines of grace are too quick to attempt to explain away the obvious. That is why I posted the Calvin quote, "Not willing that any should perish. "So wonderful is his love towards mankind, that he would have them all to be saved, and is of his own self prepared to bestow salvation on the lost. But the order is to be noticed, that God is ready to receive all to repentance, so that none may perish; for in these words the way and manner of obtaining salvation is pointed out. Every one of us, therefore, who is desirous of salvation, must learn to enter in by this way."

This is where gets complicated because all people are not saved and therefore God must not omnipotent, which of course is an idiotic thought.

John Piper solves this dilemma (God, has no dilemmas, only us) by speaking of the "two wills of God", the moral and the sovereign.

Rather than me explaining it (I'm only a two-bit theologian, probably not worth even a quarter), here is an short outline that explains it.

http://grace-efc.com/Sermons/5%202.4...%20outline.pdf

It's not by Piper but includes many of his thoughts.

Make no mistake,this does not rob God of any of His sovereignty but it does present God in such a way that we do not have to explain away those things which "seem" to go against our theology. This is why I love Calvin's Commentaries, because he I believe he is honest with the scriptures.

Once again I will post the second part of Calvin's explanation for 2 Peter 3:9 for anyone just jumping in on this thread.

"But it may be asked, If God wishes none to perish, why is it that so many do perish? To this my answer is, that no mention is here made of the hidden purpose of God, according to which the reprobate are doomed to their own ruin, but only of his will as made known to us in the gospel. For God there stretches forth his hand without a difference to all, but lays hold only of those, to lead them to himself, whom he has chosen before the foundation of the world."

Taken from Pipers, "Are There Two Wills Of God":

"It is also possible that the "you" in 2 Peter 3:9 ("the Lord is longsuffering toward you, not wishing any to perish") refers not to every person in the world but to "you" professing Christians among whom, as Adolf Schlatter says, "are people who only through repentance can attain to the grace of God and to the promised inheritance."" For the whole article go here.

My point is simple. Take the you in verse 9 and figure out who the you is. The anyone and everyone in verse 9 are the whole of the you's. The you's are the believers (v. 8), who are the ultimate audience as seen in 2 Peter 1:1. Therefore, with simple contextualization, there is no need for the confusion with at least this text in particular.


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Sola Scriptura,

XD

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"This isn't about Calvinism/Arminianism... it's about the gospel!"
-Paul Washer

"we all, by nature, are Arminians."
-C. H. Spurgeon

You can look at it that way validly, I agree. Many people I respect intreprete as such. I prefer Calvin on this particular passage. I don't agree with him on everything but for the most part I find him very helpful.

I just don't see how the story line of the passage exhibits any other interpretation, as we use these grammatical rules for anything we read.

Now, at face value, this merely palliates the whole "who saves who" issue, but for the sake of the often misinterpreted 2 Peter 3:9 text, it sheds some light.

And remember, all (and every) can mean some (or a few), but some can never mean all.


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Sola Scriptura,

XD

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"This isn't about Calvinism/Arminianism... it's about the gospel!"
-Paul Washer

"we all, by nature, are Arminians."
-C. H. Spurgeon

God has two wills? Does He have dissociate identity disorder?

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scripturesearcher, resident anarchist

"In fact, if you wish to know how libertarians regard the State and any of its acts, simply think of the State as a criminal band, and all of the libertarian attitudes will logically fall into place." - Murray Rothbard

He that is first in his own cause seemeth just; but his neighbour cometh and searcheth him. - Hebrew proverb

Check out my problem texts series.

I agree with you a great deal of the time, but have to part with you on this one. I don't think they had to "analyze" his letter, any more than I have to "analyze" posts on this forum. It is about context...

This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles, knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. They will say, Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation. For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

Now...where in that paragraph did he change who was speaking to or about? If I get a letter addressed "Dear Linda", and the writer starts speaking to me, I have no reason to believe he is speaking to or about anyone else, unless he makes specific mention of that. Plus, when taken in the context of the whole of scripture, it makes the most sense.

Just my opinion, of course. And, not anything I'd part company with anyone over.

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No, I would be a 3 pointer. Glad to know there are so many of us.

I am surprised someone has not introduced I Timothy 2:3. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4. who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5. For there is one God, {and} one mediator also between God and men, {the} man Christ Jesus,

So that everyone knows: I am a Baptist and I reject special election. I am one of those a "dime a dozen" in an earlier post.

I believe in once saved always saved. This could mean perseverance and it could not mean perseverance. If a person states: You will preserver because you can not lose your salvation then I hold to perseverance, but if preference is taken in its normal sense then it suggest hanging on or maintain because of and this is not difference from the Arminian who believes you can lose your salvation. The saved Arminian is always hoping to make it to heaven; they are persevering, holding on.

It is in how we define the word.

Not back to Timothy and Peter

God’s desire all to be saved according to Paul and Peter. Here is a thought you may have considered but just in case you haven't here it is:

Man is not seeking God
God is seeking man (he desires all to be saved but all are not - why?)

1. We know that God desires all to be saved
2. We know that Jesus die for the sin/s of all mankind
3. So if God desires all to be saved why are not all saved?

If we take the Calvinist model - God picks a few and not the all then we have a serious problem. What is that problem? God desires all to be saved. If we hold to the TULIP version of election then we have an outright contradiction of God's will. This in turn takes God out of the picture theoretically speaking because to hold this position is to cause God to violate His holiness. God's desire can not be conditioned by a decree that picks a few and not the all unless there is an alternative that protects God's holiness.

The only view is to provide salvation by enabling man to respond in a free will manner, follow the flesh or follow Christ.

Election is election. Do you deny that God has elected some for salvation, and not others (as is discussed all throughout scripture)?

So you DO believe one can lose his salvation, right?? I mean, free will for the typical semi-Pelagian would be consistent with loss of salvation... "I can choose Christ, and I can choose not to continue to choose Christ."

You've misrepresented the Calvinist position, so your conclusion fails because your premise is flawed. Hence the confusion.

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__________________
Sola Scriptura,

XD

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"This isn't about Calvinism/Arminianism... it's about the gospel!"
-Paul Washer

"we all, by nature, are Arminians."
-C. H. Spurgeon

If God wants to save everyone, who keeps our Sovereign God from saving everyone?

1. God keeps Him from saving everyone.
2. Men keep God from saving everyone.


If you say #1... well you can figure that out

If you say #2, then you cannot believe in the sovereignty of God if man keeps God from doing something that He(God) wants to do. God really wanted to save him, but man said the God couldn't do what He wanted to do. Are you really comfortable in saying this? Is there not another interpretation to I Timothy 2:4?

First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. 3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to b the knowledge of the truth.

Is God saying that he wants to save "every single person that has ever lived" If so, why doesn't He? Who is keeping Him from doing this? Or could the passage be saying that God wants all types of people to be saved. He doesn't just keep it to one specific group of people.

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II Corinthians 1:20 ESV "For all the promises of God find their Yes in him. That is why it is through him that we utter our Amen to God for his glory."

Jude 24-25 ESV "Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy, to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen."