Are you disagreeing with my Calvin quote earlier? Do you really think that Peter expected his readers to do a detailed study of his letter to understand it?

In Calvinism it is taught that God must choose who He will save and who He desires to go to hell. The natural progression of such a teaching begins with how Spiritual Death is interpreted, which in turn insists upon Total Depravity, which also makes it necessary to teach Unconditional Election.

They assume that when the Bible says that man would die in Genesis that this is a literal death. If this death is literal, then man being dead cannot respond to God at all. A dead man cannot respond in any way whatsoever. So since man is spiritually dead, and he cannot respond to grace, God must make the choice for all men.

This first false assumption here is that of spiritual death. Although man did indeed die as God said he would, this death was not literal, but figurative. How do we know this? First, because it is impossible for any person to be alive if he has a dead spirit. The Bible says that the body without the spirit is dead. It is IMPOSSIBLE for man to be literally spiritually dead! So what then is this spiritual death? Spiritual death can be understood as separation. When a person dies, their spirit is separated from their body, as is their soul. Life no longer exists in that body after this separation, just as the spirit cannot operate in the same way without the body or soul. In the same way, when Adam and Eve sinned they did indeed die spiritually. This death was not what they experienced immediately after eating the fruit of the tree. The death was being kicked out of the garden and separated from the fellowship they once had with God. Then of course was the physical death they would later experience as the body, soul and spirit would all go to their own places in separation.

Although every man is separated from God from birth, they are not without the ability to understand right and wrong. Especially not once they hear the gospel and have the Word of Truth as a guide. Once they are born again they are reconnected with God through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, now walking in newness of life - or "Eternal Life". Death is swallowed up in victory thru the work of Christ on the cross, and by our receiving Him by faith. God did not have to choose who will get saved. He gave the gospel to the world so that all who hear it could receive it by faith or reject it thru unbelief.

Through this "spiritual death" the Calvinist will teach, they then come up with Total Depravity. Man is too far "dead" to respond or have faith, so God must choose the "elect" unconditionally. Since God had a chosen elect He would save, the atonement of Christ was accomplished only for those whom He chose. Since God chose them without any conditions or choice of their own, Grace is then Irresistable. And because God has "predestined" the elect to respong irresistable, they WILL persevere to the end and cannot ever forfeit salvation.

These 5 points of Calvinism are closely knit together. If one falls they all fall. A person must believe all 5 or none of these points at all in order to be consistent with scripture. At least when we look at them the way they do, to an extreme. This is the surface of it. There is so much more!
WWW.Eternal-Truth.org

What an ignorant statement. There are many, many people that believe in some of the points of Calvinism. Baptist have historically believed in some of them. Now baptist, such as my self, don't believe in any of the strawman version of Calvinism.

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II Corinthians 1:20 ESV "For all the promises of God find their Yes in him. That is why it is through him that we utter our Amen to God for his glory."

Jude 24-25 ESV "Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy, to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen."

Yes, a person can be spiritually dead. Everyone at one time was spiritually dead. Paul says we were dead in our trespasses and sins. We were physically alive and spiritually dead. Nothing we do can please God. We have no desire to seek after God until God draws us.

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II Corinthians 1:20 ESV "For all the promises of God find their Yes in him. That is why it is through him that we utter our Amen to God for his glory."

Jude 24-25 ESV "Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy, to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen."

This is quite an assumption you make without thinking it through. Those who believe in one or more of these are very inconsistent with scripture. They just cannot work alone. In order to see this you have to lay it all out on the table and closely examine them, and understand both sides of each in the scriptures. It is when only one side is claimed out of the scriptures, without carefully considering those scriptures that oppose them that they prove to be inconsistent.

All 5 points of Calvinism were opposed strongly by the early Church. For the first 300+ years of the church not a single point was taught, yet all 5 were opposed by the Church. In these writings more than once it is stated that ALL of the Churches were in complete agreement on doctrine. People have different ideas about what the scriptures teach. The early Church clarifies what exactly the Apostles taught, as many of them were disciples of the Apostles. They strongly taught free will, opposed anything close to eternal security, and hundreds of quotes confirm that there was no disagreement on these issues.

The Church of our day has been through so much corruption, deceptions, and confusion. Just think of all the different doctrines, teachings, beliefs, and religions around us today. Should we be so sure that we have complete truth and everyone else is wrong? How can we know? We will all claim revelation from God. I have changed many of my beliefs after taking each doctrine and forgetting everything I had ever been taught and starting over. First with the scriptures alone. Then with the Greek language, And finally, with the early Church history. All confirmed most of what I believe today, with still alot only being my oppinions of interpretations. But when it comes to salvation, there is an amazing amount of evidence to lead us in the right direction. Deception is so very deep! So many are so sure they are right. But we know they cannot all be right. Yet they have the same confidence. I would ask those who read this to read from my site before being so sure. I was sure before I change some views as well. But I do not trust an interpretation, but the comparing of scripture with scripture, All the scriptures I use and all the scriptures you and everyone else use - all lain out on the table at one time and examines closely and openly. Then all of this confirmed by all of the first Churches. False teachings fall quickly when this is done. I don;t ask anyone to believe me! I ask everyone to take another look into things they may not have considered before.

I think it is good that you use Scripture to come to your conclusions. So have I. I don't think anyone is a heretic if they disagree with me over an issue as long as they are coming from the Bible.

The problem too is that you don't understand all of the different points. Do you believe you cannot lose your salvation? Then you agree with the 5th point. God keeps all of those he saves. We preserver only because we are being preserved by God. Adam sinned, sin and death have been passed down to every man. We have no desire to come to Christ until he draws us. Unless you think that man can come to Christ without the drawing of God, then you believe in the total depravity of man. You can believe in either conditional or unconditional election and still believe any of the other points. I don't totally agree with limited atonement, while I do agree with much, not all, of the other points.

What is your evidence for the first 300 years? I do know the debate goes all the way back to Augustine in the late 300's and early 400's. He debated these same points. Over a 1000 years later, they were still being debated during the protestant reformation. And I believe they will be debated until Christ returns.

My point was that you can believe in one or two and not all 5. To disagree with all 5 would make you an Arminian, seeing how they disagreed with all 5 points. (well technically they disagree with the doctrine and made the 5 points, which the cannons of dort responded with 5 counter points)

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II Corinthians 1:20 ESV "For all the promises of God find their Yes in him. That is why it is through him that we utter our Amen to God for his glory."

Jude 24-25 ESV "Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy, to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen."

I am never quick to call anyone a heretic. I will leave that judgment for God. But the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormans and many other cults use the bible too. God will judge the heretics. But heresies are within our own judgment, based on the scriptures.

I understand the 5 points very well. You have to understand that when I deal with doctrine that I am going with what the majority have shared in their beliefs. Not all agree on these points, which I am aware of their differences. I am aware of those who believe only some of the 5 points or just one of them, all the way up to the Hyper Calvinists. I do believe salvation can indeed be forfeited, as taught clearly in the scriptures, and I do not believe in the 5th point.
We have no desire because we have no knowledge. Imagine in school a girl who likes a boy and sends him a love note. The boy may have previously had no interest in her, but this note awakened him to her feelings and he can now return his interest. Once we know that God loves us and desires us to come to Him, and we are emptied of this world and hungry, then we can be drawn to Him. He has sent us a love note in the bible, His written Word of love for the world. The King has sent out His messengers into the highways and byways to compel all they could find to come to the feast.
I do not beleive in any of the 5 points. Their is some truth in each. But they are all taken to an extreme. You can believe in as many points as you want to. But this is still inconsistent. They are all closely connected. To reject one really makes no sense of the others. Lets take the 5th for example. We could do the same with any of the 5. If God makes it so that the elect WILL persevere to the end, then He does so because He has chosen them individually (Unconditional Election). He elected them by His choice because they could not choose via free will. Otherwise He would not have to choose them, and perseverance would be according to choice by faith. Atonement could then not be limited, grace would not be irresistable - all because depravity is not total. It is a domino effect. I am sure this can be explained more clearly. But if you just think it thru you will see what I mean.

No doubt the debate will continue till the end. I spent 3 years reading thru all the early Church writings, just out of curiocity and hunger for truth. I had no agenda. I was not out to prove any points. I just wanted to know what they had to say. It was to my amazement that I found so much taught against many false teachings of our day.
On my site I have given the books, chapters, and verses of each quote. This debate actually goes back to those between the true Church and the Gnostics. The Church fathers write concerning truth and error. In this they clearly state what the Apostles taught them. In it they teach against unconditional election, and strongly in favor of free will; against eternal security, and very strongly in favor of personal choice to live holy, apart from sin lest we fall and share eternity with the damned. They are very clear about man's ability to respond to the gospel, which in turn goes against total depraivity. It is stated by all of these fathers the same exact things, and it is written that all the Churches everywhere beleived the exact same.

Yes, but not without being inconsistent in your beliefs. I am of the Arminian side, but I do not consider myself an Arminian so much. According to what I beleive Pelagius taught, I would be closer to Pelagian. But not according to how most view Pelagianism. For this reason many will claim Semi-Pelagianism.
Here are just a few scriptures to consider:

Romans 2:7 “To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:”
1 Timothy 4:16 “Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.”
Hebrews 3:12-14 “Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end”.
1 Timothy 2:3-6
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,
James 1:14-15 says “But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death”.
James 5:19-20 “Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins”.
1 Timothy 1:19 “Holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith. Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.”

You missed the point of what spiritual death is. It is separation. Because of our tresspasses and sins we were separated from God. God draws us when we finally hunger and thirst. A good BBQ will draw on a hungry person and make them want to eat. But a person who turns to junk fook (the world) may never respond to the call to God's table, until they get sick and tired of being sick and tired. They are not too dead to respond. Jesus conquesred death. The gospel and grace overcame this separation by His presence in the world.

Where is your Bible to back up what you just said? The Bible is very clear the nature of man before he is regenerated by God.

Mark 7:21-23: “For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.”

John 6:44: “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.”

John 6:64-65: “But there are some of you who do not believe.’ (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, ‘This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

John 8:34: “Jesus answered them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin.’”

Romans 3:10-11: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God.”

Romans 8:7-8: “For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.”

1 Corinthians 2:14: “The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.”

Ephesians 2:1-3: “And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience – among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.”

Titus 3:3: “For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another.”


How does a person go from this, spiritually dead, unto life? It is by the grace of God.

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II Corinthians 1:20 ESV "For all the promises of God find their Yes in him. That is why it is through him that we utter our Amen to God for his glory."

Jude 24-25 ESV "Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy, to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen."

Well, here is the usually understanding of spiritual death that is assumed from scripture. But if we start off wrong, we will end wrong as well. This is why I started with Spiritual Death from Genesis, and not with Total Depravity as taught in Calvinism.
First, I never said that man was not deep in sin and able to come to God on his own somehow. The issue I am dealing with is the definition of spiritual death, not that man is not "spiritually dead"! Not at all! Man is "separated from God". and thus incapable of living up to His standards on his own. But man is not born a sinner either. He is born into a state of sin, whereby he is naturally drawn to sin and therefore will sin. But this is by choice, not nature alone. Then yes, it is by the grace of God that man goes from death to life - or rather separation to reunion with God. We are complete in Him! But the idea of this is that man IS NOT so "dead" that he cannot respond to grace, but is very capable to respond to grace after he has the knowledge thru the gospel. He does not need to be regenerated ahead of time by Unconditional election, as such a teaching of "spiritual death" insists.