I agree completely.


All men are commanded to repent and believe. Those that do will be saved. Those that refuse to will be damned.


Now, hypothetically speaking, let's say that God knew beyond all doubt that everyone on that boat would continually reject salvation. Would it be wrong for Him to supernaturally change the minds of some of them, but not all of them?


I think you would have to agree that for God to show mercy on anyone is no injustice on God's part, but rather a demonstration of love and mercy.



Let me ask you this right here: If God wanted to, could He give faith and repentance to everyone alive, thus resulting in the willful decision of everyone alive to trust in Jesus Christ as their savior?

If not, why not?

If so....why doesn't He?

Yes. Lets look at it in another way. If they ship is there to save all of the people, and only some choose to get on board - then we have a picture of God's offer of salvation. But if this ship arrives and secretly they persuade some to get on board, and do not try to convince the others, then it is their choice to allow those others to die by not even trying to persuade them. You keep trying to turn it away from God, when it just is not possible in this teaching. We know that God can do whatever He wants to do. That is no in question. What is in question is what the Bible teaches about the character of God. He is not willing that any perish, but that ALL come to repentance. So as with the case in this boat, the ship would try to presuade all on it, and not just some. Every man would have the same opportunity, but some make the wrong choice - thinking they can get to their destination on their own. God is no respector of persons. He is longsuffering to those who turn to Him in faith. Not will that any perish - yet many do. God is not the cause of bad decisions, but desires right choices. Israel made many wrong choices. God did not cause them to do such. And neither does He cause the bad choices of sinful men, nor does He cause the right choices by election. Both good and evil are set before men, and each has to choose.

No. This sounds like something an evil man would do. Evil men love their families and even their own people, while having opposite feelings about those outside their family or nation. Many are prejudice - which the dictionary defines as - an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason. The first half seems to fit how you descibe God. But scripture tells the opposite. Love does not pick and choose who to love and who not to love. Jesus said to love your enemies and those who despitefully use you. God Loves the whole world, and every man in it. He hates the ways of sinful men and will judge them. He hates the sin, but loves the sinner - just as He has told us to do. God is no hypocrit! Love with God cannot be partial. The Bible says, "God IS love". To not choose many, but only some is showing respect of persons, a partial love for men, and the opposite of His nature. And if we are all equally sinful, then there is no reason for him to choose us over others. It makes no sense logicall or scripturally to say that Gos chooses some and not others. But it does make sense logically and scripturally to say that in His love He provided a way for whosoever will call on His name via Free Will. Each man must choose his path!

Of course He could! But He won't! Why? Because He requires faith of men. He has already given the grace of the gospel and the presence of the Holy Spirit that will stir up enough faith in a hungry man so that he can come to salvvation. But to cause men to do this by any other means than He has already provided might cross the lines of faith. This is why He hardened Pharaoh's heart. He did not want him to repent because of the works he saw in all of the judgments upon Egypt. So he hardened his already hard heart to keep him from repentance, because it would have been because of miracles. Jesus refused the Pharasee's a sign for the same reason. He told Thomas that he beleived because he saw the scars in his hands and side, but " blessed are them who believe without seeing". Thomas was saved because he already previously believed in Jesus, just not in the resurrection. But when it comes to salvation, men must have faith! God will not save any man by any other means. And all thru scripture we see faith as a requirement of men, and not something given to the elect of God unconditionally. Instruction would be in vain otherwise. The scripture says, "Without faith it is impossible to please Him". If something all Christians were given by God unconditionlly, then it would say, "Because of the faith God gave us, we can please God". Grace always preceds in salvation! And it triggers faith within us. But faith is still a choice we make. It increase by the presence of the Holy Spirit, but still something we choose to walk in. Faith can NEVER be without grace! But neither is grace without faith. God made it so that His part must meet with mans part in salvation. We can NEVER boast in our part!!! We are rather ashamed because of our sin and previous life of bad choices. We do not trust in our faith, but in His grace.So much is turned around and fear in imparted to many so that they think to allow free will teaches a trust in self for salvation. This is so far from being true! It is a deception of satan to cause fear - his greatest tactic. Although we have faith we can never boast in, He increases our faith as we walk in Him. We soon realize that we can do nothing without Him.

Now hold on, Pastor. Instead of addressing why you claim that it would be wrong of God to do a work of grace on some, but not all, you instead completely change the scenario. Why is it that God would be wrong in this example?



Ok. So what you need to answer then is this: Why did you make the right choice when the majority of men never do? I'm really curious as to your answer for this one. Cause see...either God had nothing to do with it, or He had everything to do with it. Were you less sinful, maybe more enlightened than others? Did God give you an upbringing that you contribute your decision to? If so, why didn't He do for everyone what He did for you? God either had everything to do with your decision, or it was an arbitrary and random occurrence that had you at it's center. So yeah....tell us why you choose Christ. Was it in your nature?



Pastor, let me stop your emotional diatribe with two verses:

Psalm 5:5 "The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity."

Eph 5:25 "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her."

See, the notion that God hates no one is unscriptural. The notion that we should not love in different ways is unscriptural. How are we to love our wives? Like we love our neighbor's wife? No! There is to be a special love, much like the special love between Christ and His Bride.

Yes, God is love. But Christ loves His bride is a different way from what He loves the rest of humanity.




Uh huh...and from where comes this faith?

Lemme see...


Oh, yeah: Hebrews 12:2...Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith...



See Pastor, apart from God's work in your own life, you would have never come to faith. Why didn't God do for everyone what He did for you?




I don't care how emotional you get, how different you think you were from the sinners that never come to repentance. Were it not for God's divine action on your life in some capacity that He did not do for others, you would have never repented of your evil ways and chose God.



Unless, of course, you would rather take credit for everything?

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Because it is against the very character of God shown in scripture, and it is against the commands of God to us. He would not do to men what He has commanded us not to do. Even though He is God and can do what He wants, and we cannot, this does not change His reasons for not doing what He calls evil. If we are to love our enemies and do good to those who persecute us, then why would we expect the opposite of God. We can love our enemies, but we can never force them to do good. And God can love sinners, yet not force them to respond to grace - leaving this to free will.

Maybe you did not read what I have been saying the whole time. Thats okay, I will repeat it. The gospel is the grace of God sent into the world. Paul spoke of the "power of the gospel" in Romans and Corinthians. No man can come to God and salvation on his own. But he does have the ability to choose - if he has knowledhe of what his choices actually are. The gospel gives knowledge of th grace and love of God for mankind. It also gives man knowledge of his spiritual condition before God, his need of a savior, and the answer to this problem thru Christ Jesus. This knowledge can be given to all men, but not all will respond. Why? Because not all men are hungry and thirsty for righteousness, and thus cannot be filled. If you look at most Christians testimonies, they will tell of how they tried everything in the world to fill the void in their lives, and nothing ever satisfied. Many have not figured this out yet, and some never will - because they love their sinful lives and thus keep filling themselves with the world. But many hit a low in their lives. It may be through the loss or damage of a marriage or other family problems. It could be because of just filling empty inside and wanting more. But when they hit bottom, this is when most respond to the gospel. Why? Because it is at this point in their lives that they are finally hungry and can see for the moment at least that they cannot be filled by the world. So they are then faced with a decision once they hear the gospel - to try to find something else in the world to fill the void or to give their life to Jesus and trust in Him. I have seen countless make the decision to turn to Christ, many reluctantly, then afterwards receiving relelation in regeneration. I am one who loved my old life before coming to Christ, but soon after coming to Him I let all of the old life go. It was a very revealing experience that changed my life forever. There is a lot more to my story, but the main idea is that God did the work in me by grace, but I still had a choice.

It is convenient for you to use scripture this way. But it is not to be understood as you have shown. God hates the life of the sinner, but not the soul. You have to limit the scriptures in the NT in order to make them speak of only the "elect" and not the whole world. This is error! We must take all scripture and lay them all out on the table together. Truth is within all of them, without compromise or contrdiction. But to attempt to take one side only is an extreme and error. You stand on one side and the Universalists on the other. But a balanced and rightly divided word of truth shows that God hates the sinful life, but loves the world and every soul in it. The Word "world" means "all conceivable men". He is not willing that ANY should perish, but that all would come to repentance! God has a special love for His own, the bride of Christ. But not because they are an unconditioanlly elected group, but because they simply are His own - by faith. He chose us in corporate election - all those who would believe and call on His name. But this is not to eliminate His love for the rest of mankind. The early Church conirms this in their writings, of which all the Churches agreed.
Justin Martyr - Chapter 28 "For He fore-knows that some are to be saved by repentance, some even that are perhaps not yet born. In the beginning He made the human race with the power of thought and of choosing the truth and doing right, so that all men are without excuse before God; for they have been born rational and contemplative."

Justin and all the Early Church fathers simply teach what the Apostles had taught them. They ALL were in complete agreement on these teachings!

Then Irenaeus says,
Chapter 10 "For, although the languages of the world are dissimilar, yet the import of the tradition is one and the same. For the Churches which have been planted in Germany do not believe or hand down anything different, nor do those in Spain, nor those in Gaul, nor those in the East, nor those in Egypt, nor those in Libya, nor those which have been established in the central regions of the world. But as the sun, that creature of God, is one and the same throughout the whole world, so also the preaching of the truth shineth everywhere, and enlightens all men that are willing to come to a knowledge of the truth. Nor will any one of the rulers in the Churches, however highly gifted he may be in point of eloquence, teach doctrines different from these (for no one is greater than the Master); nor, on the other hand, will he who is deficient in power of expression inflict injury on the tradition. For the faith being ever one and the same, neither does one who is able at great length to discourse regarding it, make any addition to it, nor does one, who can say but little diminish it."

I posted several quotes that they all agreed on, and have many more on my site. They very clearly ALWAYS taught Free Will and against election as Calvinists teach. This is valid history that proves what the pure and undefiled Church taught and beleived. It was the Gnostic groups who taught erroe, and who taught Unconditional Election.

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Do you have faith that your car will start every morning? Do you have faith that your boss will pay you on payday? Or if married, that your spouse will remain faithful to you? We have within us the ability to have faith and trust in people and material things in this life. The gospel gives us knowledge of the Almighty God and His plan to save men. If we can trust in and have faith in people and things, then why not in Jesus? Depravity is overcome by the power of the gospel! When we read of the hope in the scriptures or hear of it by a preacher or Christian, that hope can turn to faith. Especially when the ones speaking the gospel are personal testimonies of the power of this gospel and the God they serve. Jesus said if He be lifted up (On the cross) then He would draw all men unto Him. Since faith is the only way to please God, it is those who have faith that He would draw. Grace always precedes faith, so that we know it is a work of God, and never of self. A lot of limitations have to be placed on so many scriptures to make Calvinism true. I think that if God meant these scriptures to speak only of those He chose and not all men, then He would have clrified such in each of these scriptures. But such can only be assumed and read into them. Such interpretations are impossible with the Greek. Dr Malcolm Lavender has challenged Dr James White on the issue of language, of which White will not answer because he knows Malcolm is right. Language, History, and the scriptures are all against Calvinism. Their support is faulty foundations, man made theories not found in scripture, and teachings of men after the Church had been corrupted, and none from before this time.

You seem to be proud that you have made a point against me with scripture. But unfortunately you have proven nothing at all. I would not argue against what this scripture says! Faith in Christ would never have been possible without God's grace. It is not saying that God gave faith to some and not others! This can only be assumed. God gave faith to all men to some level. Men show this faith in many ways in life. But they do not have faith in God. Yet when the gospel is shared, faith can be sparked in those who are ready and willing to receive more in life and learn of the creator. You seem to miss the power of the gospel. Faith can be directed towards God because of the power behind the message of Good news to the world. Good news is given to the world, not just some in the world that God chose. Why preach it to all if it is only for some? God wants men to have faith out of their own free will, not only because it was given to them. He even spoke of Israel, His elect, when He said, O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever! Deut. 5:29
God forces nobody. He provides the way and promises more to those who obey. Those who respond will be saved, and those who continue in faith and obedience will walk in His blessings.

This has already been answered. Each man will give an account of their own life and choices when they stand before God in Judgment. Since He made provision, those who reject it will have the harsher judgment upon them. God did the same for them as He did for me and you. They rejected it!
Calvinists typically seem to fear the idea of works. Although I believe works do have some to do with salvation, they are not works that we can boast in at all. We are ashamed of our old lives, and therefore cannot boast of where we are now. Most know that they tried every in life and failed. Their own ways failed every time. It was only God's ways that brought fulfillment. Our choice cannot cause boasting when we were complete failures on our own with the choice we made previous to Christ. It is only because of His grace that we could have faith and choose to follow Him.
All of this said, this also brings me to the issue of works not pertaining to salvation directly. They are still because of salvation. But according to scripture all men will be judged by their works, whether good or evil. And Christians will suffer loss or be rewarded. Why is it that God would reward us for any works? It seems so important to Calvinists to eliminate works from our lives. Yet God seems to consider them greatly in all He does. Our choices are a part of salvation and life in Christ. They are because of Christ, but we still have to make choices for or against Christ and what is right and wrong.


I have agreed with the fact that it is because of God that we are saved. But He did the same for all men in provision. Some receive it and others do not. Some are hungry and tired of the world, while others are full of the world and feel they have no needs. This is why Jesus said it is hard for a rich man to enter into heaven. They think they have all they need in life,and therefore they will not turn to Christ of consider their spiritual condition. They trust their money, which provides for them.

This is quite the opposite of what I have been saying. We can take no credit for what we could not do ourselves. Jesus made the provision - not us! We only received it. If I were to give you a million dollars as a gift and you received it, would you boast to others how you were able to pay off a house, buy a car, etc. because of your choice to receive the money from me? I sure hope not! The same goes with salvation.

Yet you just can't bring yourself to admit that maybe, just possibly God Himself may have been the only reason why you ever became "hungry and tired".


Oh no...according to you, God has nothing to do with that. It was all you, brother.

Sigh...



Pastor, I counted many leaps of logic, errors, and holes in your argument. You claim to be an educated man with degrees and whatnot. If you can't recognize your own fallacious argumentation, I'll not waste more of my time trying to show you the truth.

Suffice it to say, I'm glad that you were hungry enough to embrace Christ...even if He didn't have anything to do with that.

That is a Lie of the Devil, that is NOT what that Verse is saying.

You have a problem with reading comprehension skills I see.

It's saying that God chose us to be saved....through BELIEF in the truth. It's the same thing as Ephesians 1:4. We are Saved when we are IN HIM and NOT before! It's all about being Born Again. There is not one single Verse in the Bible that we are saved by DECREE of God until we are IN CHRIST!

For some strange reason, you actually believe that God is in Time with us, let me tell ya, your theology is bunk.

I hope you aren't a pastor or a Sunday school teacher because your flock is getting ripped off.

Proverbs 1:24, 1 Timothy 4:10, 2 Peter 3:9, Romans 9:1-5, Ezekiel 33:11, Ephesians 1:4, 1 Peter 1:2, Rev 22:17, John 3:16, Acts 7:51

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Nobody said otherwise.

Nobody said otherwise.

Pay attention to the context of the discussion, which regards corporate vs. individual election over against conditional vs. unconditional election.

Wrong.

What relevance do these passages have to the topic at hand?

Proverbs 1:24 - Those who were not given a circumcised heart did not believe. Point?
1 Timothy 4:10 - Jesus provided a provision for all men without exception yet did not die so as to secure for all men without exception the condition by which the provision is applied (Romans 8:32). Point?
2 Peter 3:9 - God will not lose any of His elect because He is patient with them such that they will be saved (verse 15). God is not patient with all without exception (otherwise, why would He ordain the death of any?); hence, God does not intend to save all without exception. Point?
Romans 9:1-5 - Paul is sorrowful because the Jews generally did not believe, but concludes God's unconditional election of some to salvation (vss. 6-8, 22-24, 30-33) and not others is consistent with His righteousness. Point?
Ezekiel 33:11 - God will not forsake those with whom He has covenanted. Point?
Ephesians 1:4 - God chose us who are in Him from the foundation of the world to be in Him, destroying a conditional election. Point?
1 Peter 1:2 - God foreknew (chose to enter into a relationship with, cf. Romans 11:2) the elect. Point?
Rev 22:17 - whoever wills to believe will believe. Does this explain how one comes to desire to believe? No. So... Point?
John 3:16 - whoever believes will be saved. Point?
Acts 7:51 - those who were not elected to be born again resisted the Spirit, supporting the doctrine of Total Depravity. Point?

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Here is some info for you on Pelagius and Augustine. This is a lot easier than typing up another book. This shows my view on the issue.
http://www.sullivan-county.com/id2/pelagius_brit.htm

Pastor Lyndon,

Good to see you again!!! I remember you so well. I did read your link - www.eternal-truth.org and also, your posts at another discussion forum which was under Arminians site, it was later shut down about 3 years ago. Do you remember me?

You are not alone in this forum, to debate with Calvinists. Also, I am the other person that I am strongly disagree with Calvinists. I am happily to make posts with verses with them.

By the way, I do truly believe that some Calvinists are truly Christians, not because of their beliefs(doctrines), but because of their fruits and faith.

Rev. 22:20 -Amen!