I wonder if it is possible that "Calvinist" or a single Calvinist can clearly, with Scripture, make a case for Regeneration before salvation.

There are only two passages in the NT that use the word "regeneration". The one in Matthew deals with the resurrection. The one is Titus 3:5 does not define a process for or against anyone's position.

Who will step forward and list the clear teaching form Scripture.

Please do not quote dead and or living authors. Tell us from the Bible. Can you as an individual without the statements form others make a case from Scripture on your position concerning "regeneration".

The door is open for you to lay it our Scripturally.

Have at it.

First of all, if your idea of a study of Regeneration is limited to the two times the actual word is used, then you are definately off on the wrong foot.

Take a look at John 3 - the "new birth" passage. Regeneration is the theological term used for the new birth.

3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

What does it mean to "see the kingdom of God"? I don't think Christ if referring to actually seeing Christ reigning in heaven at some future date. He is describing the spiritual kingdom of God which is "not of the this world" as Christ told Pilate. He is a King, but his servants would not fight because this kingdom is not earthly, but spiritual. Now go to 1 Corinthians 2:14 -

But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Is believing that Jesus Christ is the appointed Messiah who came down from Heaven as the incarnate Son of God - yet remained a poor, humble man - and died to pay the penalty of sin - is that a spiritual thing? Can natural man "Discern it?"

It is a very spiritual thing, and as Jesus told Nicodemus, you won't comprehend it until the Spirit has come upon you and opened your eyes.

Look at Acts 16:14 -

Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul.


Now why was this woman able to discern and recieve, (or "heed) the things spoken of by Paul? Because God saw fit to send the Spirit upon her and open her understanding. That is the sending of the Holy Spirit to the sinner in conjunction with the preaching of the word, which saves the sinner.

Why can't unregenerate people believe?

John 12:40
“ He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes,Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,So that I should heal them.”

Why do they believe?

Ephesians 1:17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, 18 the eyes of your understanding[c] being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,

Got to go - I have a lesson to study for and I am missing Star Trek.

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We love because he first loved us. If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen.
I John 4:19-20


Just remember, "Mostly dead is slightly alive." - Miracle Max

Blog: YoungOldGuy
Trinity PCA Johnstown

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"Fill us, O Lord and Father of us all, we beseech Thee, with thy gentle Spirit, and dispel on both sides all the clouds of misunderstanding and passion. Make an end to the strife of blind fury...Guard us against abusing our powers, and enable us to employ them with all earnestness for the promotion of holiness." - Ulrich Zwingli at the Marburg Colloquy

Here is a link where many Calvinist have written, taught and preached on the topic: http://www.monergism.com/thethreshol...eneration.html

If you have any questions after that we would be glad to address them.

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"Fill us, O Lord and Father of us all, we beseech Thee, with thy gentle Spirit, and dispel on both sides all the clouds of misunderstanding and passion. Make an end to the strife of blind fury...Guard us against abusing our powers, and enable us to employ them with all earnestness for the promotion of holiness." - Ulrich Zwingli at the Marburg Colloquy

Z-

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GordonSlocum good question rwinger61 did a good old fashion gig and did not answer the question.

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Feel free to quote me, herb, in saying that MAN . . . MUST BE SPIRITUALLY

regenerated before he believes.
regenerated before he repents.
regenerated before his sins are blotted out.
regenerated before he is saved.
regenerated before he is converted.
regenerated before he is in Christ.
regenerated before he is a new creature.

--Dr. Bob Griffin

Under Bob Griffin's system of belief, there can be no condition for regeneration other than an unwritten pre-Adamic decree of God (unconditional election). Total depravity, under this cold, dead theological system, means TOTAL INABILITY to do anything for salvation, including repentance and faith. The ABSURD corollary to all this is his insistence that a man is REGENERATED or has LIFE BEFORE he repents or believes. We shall examine this anti-Christian, anti-Bible doctrine and its implications. We shall compare Dr. Bob Griffin's comments with the scriptures.

1. Must be regenerated before he believes. --Dr. Bob Griffin

. . . that BELIEVING YE MIGHT HAVE LIFE through his name. -- John 20:31

. . . he that BELIEVETH NOT the Son SHALL NOT SEE LIFE . . . -- John 3:36

. . . to them which should hereafter BELIEVE on him TO LIFE everlasting. -- 1 Tim. 1:16

For ye are all the CHILDREN of God BY FAITH in Christ Jesus. -- Gal. 3:26

. . . THY FAITH HATH SAVED THEE . . . -- Luke 7:50

And ye will not COME TO ME, that ye MIGHT HAVE LIFE. -- John 5:40

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: -- John 1:12

. . . God from the beginning CHOSEN [ELECTED] you to salvation THROUGH SANCTIFICATION of the Spirit and BELIEF of the truth. - 2 Thess. 2:13

It is faith that saves not regeneration. Without faith it is impossible to please God. One must first come to Jesus to have spiritual life. The unregenerate can only have life through faith which comes first. No unregenerate even sees life without faith. Believing is to life and not regeneration to life. A person becomes a child of God by faith and not regeneration. A man must receive Christ before he becomes a son of God. There is no such thing as a son of God without regeneration. Our texts DEMAND that faith or belief precedes said life or regeneration. That presents a problem to those, who would have the elect regenerated BEFORE FAITH, unless they are prepared to argue regeneration BEFORE spiritual life, regeneration BEFORE becoming a child of God, or regeneration WITHOUT life. God predestined salvation to be through the belief of the truth.

2. Must be regenerated before he repents. --Dr. Bob Griffin
3. Must be regenerated before his sins are blotted out. --Dr. Bob Griffin
4. must be regenerated before he is converted. --Dr. Bob Griffin

. . . repent ye, and believe the gospel. - Mark 1:5

REPENT ye therefore, and BE CONVERTED, THAT YOUR SINS may be blotted out . . . -- Acts 3:19

. . . through his name whosoever BELIEVETH in him SHALL RECEIVE REMISSION OF SINS. -- Acts 10:43

. . . they should REPENT and TURN TO GOD, and do works meet for repentance. -- Acts 26:20

. . . Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance UNTO LIFE . . . -- Acts 11:18

Repentance is UNTO LIFE and not life unto repentance, regardless whether God grants it and what ever the Calvinist spin is on that. Faith precedes repentance, and repentance precedes conversion and the remission of sins and they all precede regeneration. One must believe in order to repent. One must believe and repent to be converted. One must be converted to receive the remission of sins or to have one's sins blotted out. Before one turns to God, one must repent. Since remission of sins and conversion or turning to God all hinge on previous repentance, which all hinges on belief, it follows that they all must precede regeneration or life. Unless a Calvinist is prepared to argue spiritual life in a nonbeliever without faith, the remission of one's sins, conversion, and repentance because one is of the elect.

4. Must be regenerated before he is saved. --Dr. Bob Griffin

For by grace are ye saved THROUGH FAITH . . . -- Eph. 2:8

Receiving the END OF YOUR FAITH, even the SALVATION of your souls. -- 1 Pet. 1:9

. . .WITHOUT FAITH it is IMPOSSIBLE to please him . . . -- Heb. 11:6

. . . THY FAITH HATH SAVED THEE . . . -- Luke 7:50

Salvation is the END OF FAITH-not the beginning of faith. Faith and salvation are not the END of regeneration. We believe and do not regenerate to the saving of the soul. Faith saves, not regeneration. No such thing as an unsaved regenerate.

6. Must be regenerated before he is in Christ. --Dr. Bob Griffin
7. Must be regenerated before he is a new creature. --Dr. Bob Griffin

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. - 2 Cor. 5:17

But to him that worketh not, but BELIEVETH on him that justifieth the ungodly, his FAITH is counted for RIGHTEOUSNESS. -- Rom. 4:5

To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him WHICH BELIEVETH in Jesus. -- Rom. 3:26
. . . I am not come to call the RIGHTEOUS, but sinners TO REPENTANCE. --Matt. 9:13

. . . the NEW MAN, which after God is CREATED IN RIGHTEOUSNESS and true holiness. -- Eph. 4:24

Now if any man HAVE NOT the Spirit of Christ, HE IS NONE OF HIS. -- Rom. 8:9

Romans 8:9 takes care of both Charismatics and Calvinists. If one is a child of God by faith in Christ Jesus and the Holy Ghost cannot be in anyone but a child of God, then regeneration CANNOT precede having the Holy Spirit. Unless the Calvinist is prepared to argue having the Holy Spirit before repentance, conversion, remission of sins, faith, righteousness, holiness, salvation, eternal life, and possessing the Son.

A man must be in Christ to be a new creature. If he is in Christ and a new creature or new man, he is created in righteousness not unrighteousness. The Lord called unrighteous sinners to repentance and not those regenerated and righteous already.

Faith precedes justification and righteousness and repentance, conversion, and remission of sins precede righteousness and holiness, therefore spiritual LIFE or regeneration cannot precede repentance, faith, justification, holiness, or righteousness. Since the new man is created in righteousness, regeneration cannot precede the new creature, righteousness, or TRUE HOLINESS.

Now, let Dr. Bob Griffin produce his proof texts to back up his "regeneration befores."

--Herb Evans

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And by the holy Scriptures we understand, the Canonical Books of the Old and New Testament, as they are now translated into our English Mother-Tongue, of which there never hath been any doubt of their verity, and authority, in the protestant Churches of Christ to this day. --The English Orthodox Baptist Confession of 1679

1. Scriptures in the English mother tongue.
2. Authoritive in the English mother tongue.
3. No doubt as to their verity in the English mother tongue.

GordonSlocum,

Here is an article that will take less time to read and is pretty comprehensive:http://www.dbts.edu/journals/2002/Snoeberger.pdf

It is written by a Calvinist who is the librarian of a IFB seminary.

I would be interested in your response to it.

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"Fill us, O Lord and Father of us all, we beseech Thee, with thy gentle Spirit, and dispel on both sides all the clouds of misunderstanding and passion. Make an end to the strife of blind fury...Guard us against abusing our powers, and enable us to employ them with all earnestness for the promotion of holiness." - Ulrich Zwingli at the Marburg Colloquy

Thank You Herb for defending Bible Truth - The Bible - Nothing Else, Nothing More, Nothing Less. Thanks

Calvinism is still trying to stretch a gnat around telephone pole.