No, we need to back it up. Let's talk about the condition of the sinner. That's were the difference is in our positions. Sure, a man repents and believes in Christ and is saved. That we agree on. The problem lies in the state of natural man and the Scriptures we have quoted which show him to be spiritually dead.
Quote:
Show me one verse in the New Testament that clearly teaches that a sinner man must first be regenerated before He can have faith in Christ. I want a clear distinct verse. Quote it and we will debate that verse. Don't quote to me endless passages dealing with corporate Israel.
Bible doctrine is not determined by individual "proof texts". Scripture is compared to Scripture and then one comes up with what is consistently taught. Some verses are less clear than others, and could, they themselves, appear to teach something opposite of what is meant.
I did just what you ask in the very first response to your question, answering why regeneration must precede faith. I am not a "professional" theologian, so I am sure that there are many who could answer it better, but the basic facts are there.
Quote:
Now, would you agree that Romans 10:17 represents the total truth on the process of salvation.
Verse 14 ask a very important question: "How therefore may they call on the one in whom they believe not?"
He answers the question in the following verses. Someone has to take the message to a person so that they can hear the Gospel. Hearing the Gospel is learning about God's grace and man's state.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God - again, not the issue. The issue is the state of fallen man in hearing the gospel. Eternal life results if God (who had already elected the hearer) grants faith in that hearing. Then the man is saved. If not, it is so much foolishness to the sinner and water off a duck's back.
Quote:
Lets find out if to this point we are on the same page. Just stick with the passage at hand.
Again, the difference lies in the state of the sinner - dead or mostly dead? Not that the sinner excercises faith. Obviously, many do. The question is how they, in their spiritually dead condition, do it - of themselves, or by a spiritual resurrection from above?
__________________ We love because he first loved us. If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen.
I John 4:19-20
Just remember, "Mostly dead is slightly alive." - Miracle Max
Feel free to quote me, herb, in saying that MAN . . . MUST BE SPIRITUALLY
regenerated before he believes. regenerated before he repents. regenerated before his sins are blotted out. regenerated before he is saved. regenerated before he is converted. regenerated before he is in Christ. regenerated before he is a new creature.
--Dr. Bob Griffin
Under Bob Griffin's system of belief, there can be no condition for regeneration other than an unwritten pre-Adamic decree of God (unconditional election). Total depravity, under this cold, dead theological system, means TOTAL INABILITY to do anything for salvation, including repentance and faith. The ABSURD corollary to all this is his insistence that a man is REGENERATED or has LIFE BEFORE he repents or believes. We shall examine this anti-Christian, anti-Bible doctrine and its implications. We shall compare Dr. Bob Griffin's comments with the scriptures.
1. Must be regenerated before he believes. --Dr. Bob Griffin
. . . that BELIEVING YE MIGHT HAVE LIFE through his name. -- John 20:31
. . . he that BELIEVETH NOT the Son SHALL NOT SEE LIFE . . . -- John 3:36
. . . to them which should hereafter BELIEVE on him TO LIFE everlasting. -- 1 Tim. 1:16
For ye are all the CHILDREN of God BY FAITH in Christ Jesus. -- Gal. 3:26
And ye will not COME TO ME, that ye MIGHT HAVE LIFE. -- John 5:40
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: -- John 1:12
. . . God from the beginning CHOSEN [ELECTED] you to salvation THROUGH SANCTIFICATION of the Spirit and BELIEF of the truth. - 2 Thess. 2:13
It is faith that saves not regeneration. Without faith it is impossible to please God. One must first come to Jesus to have spiritual life. The unregenerate can only have life through faith which comes first. No unregenerate even sees life without faith. Believing is to life and not regeneration to life. A person becomes a child of God by faith and not regeneration. A man must receive Christ before he becomes a son of God. There is no such thing as a son of God without regeneration. Our texts DEMAND that faith or belief precedes said life or regeneration. That presents a problem to those, who would have the elect regenerated BEFORE FAITH, unless they are prepared to argue regeneration BEFORE spiritual life, regeneration BEFORE becoming a child of God, or regeneration WITHOUT life. God predestined salvation to be through the belief of the truth.
2. Must be regenerated before he repents. --Dr. Bob Griffin 3. Must be regenerated before his sins are blotted out. --Dr. Bob Griffin 4. must be regenerated before he is converted. --Dr. Bob Griffin
. . . repent ye, and believe the gospel. - Mark 1:5
REPENT ye therefore, and BE CONVERTED, THAT YOUR SINS may be blotted out . . . -- Acts 3:19
. . . through his name whosoever BELIEVETH in him SHALL RECEIVE REMISSION OF SINS. -- Acts 10:43
. . . they should REPENT and TURN TO GOD, and do works meet for repentance. -- Acts 26:20
. . . Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance UNTO LIFE . . . -- Acts 11:18
Repentance is UNTO LIFE and not life unto repentance, regardless whether God grants it and what ever the Calvinist spin is on that. Faith precedes repentance, and repentance precedes conversion and the remission of sins and they all precede regeneration. One must believe in order to repent. One must believe and repent to be converted. One must be converted to receive the remission of sins or to have one's sins blotted out. Before one turns to God, one must repent. Since remission of sins and conversion or turning to God all hinge on previous repentance, which all hinges on belief, it follows that they all must precede regeneration or life. Unless a Calvinist is prepared to argue spiritual life in a nonbeliever without faith, the remission of one's sins, conversion, and repentance because one is of the elect.
4. Must be regenerated before he is saved. --Dr. Bob Griffin
For by grace are ye saved THROUGH FAITH . . . -- Eph. 2:8
Receiving the END OF YOUR FAITH, even the SALVATION of your souls. -- 1 Pet. 1:9
. . .WITHOUT FAITH it is IMPOSSIBLE to please him . . . -- Heb. 11:6
Salvation is the END OF FAITH-not the beginning of faith. Faith and salvation are not the END of regeneration. We believe and do not regenerate to the saving of the soul. Faith saves, not regeneration. No such thing as an unsaved regenerate.
6. Must be regenerated before he is in Christ. --Dr. Bob Griffin 7. Must be regenerated before he is a new creature. --Dr. Bob Griffin
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. - 2 Cor. 5:17
But to him that worketh not, but BELIEVETH on him that justifieth the ungodly, his FAITH is counted for RIGHTEOUSNESS. -- Rom. 4:5
To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him WHICH BELIEVETH in Jesus. -- Rom. 3:26
. . . I am not come to call the RIGHTEOUS, but sinners TO REPENTANCE. --Matt. 9:13
. . . the NEW MAN, which after God is CREATED IN RIGHTEOUSNESS and true holiness. -- Eph. 4:24
Now if any man HAVE NOT the Spirit of Christ, HE IS NONE OF HIS. -- Rom. 8:9
Romans 8:9 takes care of both Charismatics and Calvinists. If one is a child of God by faith in Christ Jesus and the Holy Ghost cannot be in anyone but a child of God, then regeneration CANNOT precede having the Holy Spirit. Unless the Calvinist is prepared to argue having the Holy Spirit before repentance, conversion, remission of sins, faith, righteousness, holiness, salvation, eternal life, and possessing the Son.
A man must be in Christ to be a new creature. If he is in Christ and a new creature or new man, he is created in righteousness not unrighteousness. The Lord called unrighteous sinners to repentance and not those regenerated and righteous already.
Faith precedes justification and righteousness and repentance, conversion, and remission of sins precede righteousness and holiness, therefore spiritual LIFE or regeneration cannot precede repentance, faith, justification, holiness, or righteousness. Since the new man is created in righteousness, regeneration cannot precede the new creature, righteousness, or TRUE HOLINESS.
Now, let Dr. Bob Griffin produce his proof texts to back up his "regeneration befores."
--Herb Evans
Regeneration does not begin Salvation. It is Salvation. If you are not born again You are gonna bust hell wide open.
pastoradam
No, we need to back it up. Let's talk about the condition of the sinner. That's were the difference is in our positions. Sure, a man repents and believes in Christ and is saved. That we agree on. The problem lies in the state of natural man and the Scriptures we have quoted which show him to be spiritually dead.
Bible doctrine is not determined by individual "proof texts". Scripture is compared to Scripture and then one comes up with what is consistently taught. Some verses are less clear than others, and could, they themselves, appear to teach something opposite of what is meant.
I did just what you ask in the very first response to your question, answering why regeneration must precede faith. I am not a "professional" theologian, so I am sure that there are many who could answer it better, but the basic facts are there.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God - again, not the issue. The issue is the state of fallen man in hearing the gospel. Eternal life results if God (who had already elected the hearer) grants faith in that hearing. Then the man is saved. If not, it is so much foolishness to the sinner and water off a duck's back.
Again, the difference lies in the state of the sinner - dead or mostly dead? Not that the sinner excercises faith. Obviously, many do. The question is how they, in their spiritually dead condition, do it - of themselves, or by a spiritual resurrection from above?
I would say we finally managed to arrive at a conclusion. As I read your post your whole argument is bound up in your definition of deadness. This deadness to you means you have to read into the scripture regeneration prior to faith. At least you state it clearly. I can handle that. We simple disagree.
The question that non-Calvinist have to answer is can those who are accustomed to doing evil do good? (Jeremiah 13:23) Scripture says these people can do good as as easily as the Ethiopian can change his color and the leopard can change his spots. We see that as an impossibility and you seem to see that as not a problem. If you admit that it is impossible for the Ethopian to change his color or the leopard his spots then you are where we are. It is only by a supernatual act of God that this can possibly happen because with God all things are possible. With man it will always be impossible.
The question is not about doing evil and good; it is about self preservation and accepting rescue. The Ethiopian and the leopard are able to do both, since God gives them that ability. – Herb Evans
Herb,
Talk about abusing scripture!!! Let me walk you through this slowly. the use of the analogy of the Ethopian's skin and the leopard's spots is just that, an anology. An analogy is "a form of reasoning in which one thing is inferred to be similar to another thing in a certain respect, on the basis of the known similarity between the things in other respects." (emphasis mine) Notice they are not similar in ALL respects. What is the respect in which the anaolgies are similiar to the statement? Exactly as I stated earlier, "these people can do good as as easily as the Ethiopian can change his color and the leopard can change his spots." That is the only similarity. It stands for nothing more than that. You, on the other hand, start talking about self preservation and rescue? Of course, I might do that to if I had no answer to the question as you obviously don't. Up to this point your problem is one of understanding analogies and their purpose and limits.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Herb Evans
JTB: Another question the non-Calvinist has to answer is does anyone seek for God? You seem to be saying "yes". Romans 3:11 says "no". If you agree that nobody seeks God then you are stuck with explaining how you and I are now God seekers when at one time we weren't. We say it is again only because of a supernatural work by God that we then become God seekers. You seem to say that man becomes a God seeker prior to any supernatural work of God. The supernatural work of God (regeneration) has to wait until after man seeks God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Herb Evans
Herb: You are impaled on your own spear here, since the elect are also included in that "anyone," if pressed to its technical restraints. You must put a disclaimer on this verse somewhere, as well as the non Calvinist. You have a narrow hoop, when it comes to the supernatural work of God. The Gospel and Holy Spirit conviction must needs be part of that supernatural work that gives man the ability to seek God, after he is informed that he must do so. The heavens that declare the glory of God are also part of God’s supernatural work. God lighteth every man that comes into the world, and the cross draws all men to Him; this is also part of the supernatural work of God that you seem to discount. – Herb Evans
You again miss the point. I agree that anyone means everyone in this verse including the elect at one point. But the problem is that there are those who seek God, for instance you and me. How is it that this verse can be true and it also be true that you and I, and many others, seek God? We are somehow different/changed from when we were not God seekers. What has changed? How has that change happened?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Herb Evans
This is the typical fatalist response to those that believe that folks exposed to the Gospel and the Holy Spirit’s reproof of sin, judgment, and righteousness can come to Christ. Their bodies and souls are not “dead” like Lazarus. Man is a living soul, although he is dead in trespasses and sins. – Herb Evans
What do you think it means that we are dead in our trespasses and sins? Just give me a straight answer, what does it mean?
__________________
"Fill us, O Lord and Father of us all, we beseech Thee, with thy gentle Spirit, and dispel on both sides all the clouds of misunderstanding and passion. Make an end to the strife of blind fury...Guard us against abusing our powers, and enable us to employ them with all earnestness for the promotion of holiness." - Ulrich Zwingli at the Marburg Colloquy
I would say we finally managed to arrive at a conclusion. As I read your post your whole argument is bound up in your definition of deadness. This deadness to you means you have to read into the scripture regeneration prior to faith. At least you state it clearly. I can handle that. We simple disagree.
What are we talking about here. This sounds like progressive Salvation. If that is what is being talked about here that is major heresy.
pastoradam
Regeneration does not begin Salvation. It is Salvation. If you are not born again You are gonna bust hell wide open.
pastoradam
My, I am overwhelmed by your irrefutable one liner argument in response to a lengthy post. I am born again. I was born again after I believed not before. -- Herb Evans
__________________
And by the holy Scriptures we understand, the Canonical Books of the Old and New Testament, as they are now translated into our English Mother-Tongue, of which there never hath been any doubt of their verity, and authority, in the protestant Churches of Christ to this day. --The English Orthodox Baptist Confession of 1679
1. Scriptures in the English mother tongue.
2. Authoritive in the English mother tongue.
3. No doubt as to their verity in the English mother tongue.
I would say we finally managed to arrive at a conclusion. As I read your post your whole argument is bound up in your definition of deadness. This deadness to you means you have to read into the scripture regeneration prior to faith. At least you state it clearly. I can handle that. We simple disagree.
You have to understand that Calvinist must protect their fatalistic philosophy. They can't allow anything done by the elect to precede salvation and regeneration nor to effect it, hence regeneration before everything. This is why many of them do not have a tesimony of their salvation experience, for they are "REALIZERS" and not believers. All of a sudden, they realize that they are saved and of the elect. It just comes upon them. -- Herb Evans
__________________
And by the holy Scriptures we understand, the Canonical Books of the Old and New Testament, as they are now translated into our English Mother-Tongue, of which there never hath been any doubt of their verity, and authority, in the protestant Churches of Christ to this day. --The English Orthodox Baptist Confession of 1679
1. Scriptures in the English mother tongue.
2. Authoritive in the English mother tongue.
3. No doubt as to their verity in the English mother tongue.
My, I am overwhelmed by your irrefutable one liner argument in response to a lengthy post. I am born again. I was born again after I believed not before. -- Herb Evans
Ok, I'll give scripture to back up what I said.
First, let's define Regeneration. Herbert Lockyear, who is much more studied than I, defines Regeneration as a new beginning or the act of the new birth. The word only appears twice in the Bible, but a related term is born again.
John 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
We would at least agree that in order to go to heaven you must be saved. What is saved? Romans 3:10 says that there is none righteous no not one. There is a problem presented here because I Corinthians 6:9 states Know ye not that unrighteousness shall not inherit the kingdom of God?
So, I have to made new because I am not righteous.
II Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
I thank God that while I am not what I'm gonna be I 'm not what I used to be.
Ok, I'll give scripture to back up what I said.-- PastorAdam
First, let's define Regeneration. Herbert Lockyear, who is much more studied than I, defines Regeneration as a new beginning or the act of the new birth. The word only appears twice in the Bible, but a related term is born again.
John 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Who cares what Lockyear says? But so far so good. -- Herb Evans
We would at least agree that in order to go to heaven you must be saved.
Yes, we agree on this. -- Herb Evans
What is saved? Romans 3:10 says that there is none righteous no not one. There is a problem presented here because I Corinthians 6:9 states Know ye not that unrighteousness shall not inherit the kingdom of God?
So, I have to made new because I am not righteous.
II Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
I thank God that while I am not what I'm gonna be I 'm not what I used to be.
I don't have a problem with this either. I have a problem with you not understanding the post of mine that you criticized in which I am saying that the new brth or regeneration or salvation does not occur before one repents and believes. Perhaps, you have a reading disability? -- Herb Evans
__________________
And by the holy Scriptures we understand, the Canonical Books of the Old and New Testament, as they are now translated into our English Mother-Tongue, of which there never hath been any doubt of their verity, and authority, in the protestant Churches of Christ to this day. --The English Orthodox Baptist Confession of 1679
1. Scriptures in the English mother tongue.
2. Authoritive in the English mother tongue.
3. No doubt as to their verity in the English mother tongue.
Last edited by Herb Evans; 01-31-2007 at 11:46 AM.
__________________
And by the holy Scriptures we understand, the Canonical Books of the Old and New Testament, as they are now translated into our English Mother-Tongue, of which there never hath been any doubt of their verity, and authority, in the protestant Churches of Christ to this day. --The English Orthodox Baptist Confession of 1679
1. Scriptures in the English mother tongue.
2. Authoritive in the English mother tongue.
3. No doubt as to their verity in the English mother tongue.
Last edited by Herb Evans; 01-31-2007 at 12:10 PM.
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