Its "regardless" irregardless isn't a word... sorry

Anyway, yes fatalism and human responsibility are opposites. They can't BOTH be in the picture.
Actually, that is a red herring if I change the subject. A Straw man is when you misrepresent your opponents view. you know, like say P means something it doesn't and then argue against the made up view of P.

They cannot because they don't want to. You choose based on your desires. EVERY choice you have ever made has been based on what you wanted most at that moment with the options available to you. No man wants to seek Christ. no man can come to Christ without the drawing of God. You can laugh all you want, but it is very biblical what I just said. The Bible is very clear the condition of man before he is saved. The Bible in many times speaks of choosing people to heaven. I have given them to you already.

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Nice comeback.... Was that your best?
Again, you are ignorant of what Calvinist believe. Not all take it to an extreme. I gave you an article from a Calvinist demonstrating the difference. But like you always do, you ignore what the Calvinist say they believe. you would rather make up something they do not believe.
You keep ignoring the fact that it says before the foundation of the world. What does that mean? Were you choosen when you got saved? Well, if that is true, then did you get saved before the foundation of the world?
I have not ignored in Christ or in Him. You are ignoring the before the foundation of the world. We were chosen in him. This doesn't mean we are already saved. Or already in him, we are chosen before hand in him and will be in him later. Why do you continue to ignore the "before the foundations of the world"?
No, you didn't read what I said. You almost appear to be arguing against the passage and not me.
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We were chosen in him before the foundation of the world. We are not yet in him till we are saved. You are not saved at election. – Jbh28
But it is election IN CHRIST and IN HIM that is found in your proof texts before you were saved or ever born. It does not say chosen before the foundation of the world. – Herb Evans
"yes it does, it says we were chosen in him before the foundation of the world. what does the "before the foundation of the world mean"?
So we are chosen in him after being saved....hum so were you saved before the foundation of the world? You see the difference. I have a Bible verse, you have to take out a statement. Where does it say anywhere in Scripture that election happens after we are saved?

God knew us before we were born.
Look Herb, I'm tired of playing your little game. You do not know what Calvinists really believe. you don't even know what tulip really means. You only know the straw man version of what they believe. You might have been in a Calvinist church, probably by what you have said a hyper calvinist church. Unless you can explain what "before the foundation of the world" means, I'm done dealing with this subject with you. You said we were elected after being saved, while Ephesians 1 says we were elected before. (unless you were born before the foundations of the world.

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II Corinthians 1:20 ESV "For all the promises of God find their Yes in him. That is why it is through him that we utter our Amen to God for his glory."

Jude 24-25 ESV "Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy, to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen."

jbh28;1579967]
Its "regardless" irregardless isn't a word... sorry – Jbh28
Sorry, but it is a word in the dictionary – “adv [prob. Blend of irrespective and regardless] nonstand: REGARDLESS.” Still if you want to turn an theological argument into an English or spelling argument. Do it with someone else. – Herb Evans
Anyway, yes fatalism and human responsibility are opposites. They can't BOTH be in the picture. –Jbh28
Okay! So, Calvinists are still fatalists. – Herb Evan
Actually, that is a red herring if I change the subject. A Straw man is when you misrepresent your opponents view. you know, like say P means something it doesn't and then argue against the made up view of P. --jbh28
Actually, a straw man is a weak or imaginary opposition (as an argument or adversary). How about a red herring straw man? The “P” in TULIP says “perserverence” and not preservation. – Herb Evans
this is just plain ignorance. how can all by hyper? Do you not understand what hyper means. Go do some study on what Calvinist believe. – JBH 28
At the Moment, I am just interested in what you believe. -- Herb Evans

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Yup! TULIP all inclusive fatalism makes them all inclusive HYPER, whatever meaning you care to assign to it in “your” ignorance. – Herb Evans

Nice comeback.... Was that your best?– Jbh28
No, stick around for better. – Herb Evans
Hyper Calvinists are those that take the doctrines of Calvinism to an extreme. you can't have "hyper" to all. doesn't make sense. – Jbh28
All TULIPS take their doctrine to an extreme. Therefore, they are all hyper. – Herb Evans
Again, you are ignorant of what Calvinist believe. Not all take it to an extreme. – Jbh28
Again, you are ignorant of what they believe to the extreme and even what you believe to the extreme. – Herb Evans
I gave you an article from a Calvinist demonstrating the difference. But like you always do, you ignore what the Calvinist say they believe. you would rather make up something they do not believe.– Jbh28
I do not ignore what you say, for you are who I am debating and not them. Again, I am not interested in Calvinist propaganda and damage control from others. It is just you and me. If you can’t handle your own arguments without bringing in help – pity you. – Herb Evans

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Yes, things referenced to us are in time. That is why when God said when we are chosen, He put it in time "before the foundation of the world."– Jbh28

You keep ignoring the fact that it says before the foundation of the world. What does that mean? – Jbh28
Before the foundation means eternity as in my previously posted article. – Herb Evans
Were you choosen when you got saved? – Jbh28
Is choosen a word? Yes I was elect and chosen when I was IN CHRIST when I got saved. – Herb Evans
Well, if that is true, then did you get saved before the foundation of the world?– Jbh28
No, I did not get saved before the foundation of the world. Your move! – Herb Evans

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Then we have been elect for all eternity. You must do something with "before the foundation of the world." You can't just thought it out the window. – Jbh28

I have not ignored in Christ or in Him. You are ignoring the before the foundation of the world. We were chosen in him.– Jbh28
You have ignored IN HIM to be holy and blameless. You have ignored IN CHRIST as a pre requisite for that election in eternity and God’s present. – Herb Evans
This doesn't mean we are already saved. – Jbh28
Agreed! – Herb Evans
Or already in him, . . .– Jbh28
Agreed! – Herb Evans
. . . we are chosen before hand in him and will be in him later. – Jbh28
Chosen in Him to be Holy and without blame. – Herb Evans
Why do you continue to ignore the "before the foundations of the world"?– Jbh28
I don’t ignore it, I qualify it with its own qualifier “IN CHRIST.” You are not IN CHRIST in eternity. Still, God has made the determination that those in Christ “LATER” are chosen or elect. No one is chosen or elect that does not exist. – Herb Evans

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And by the holy Scriptures we understand, the Canonical Books of the Old and New Testament, as they are now translated into our English Mother-Tongue, of which there never hath been any doubt of their verity, and authority, in the protestant Churches of Christ to this day. --The English Orthodox Baptist Confession of 1679

1. Scriptures in the English mother tongue.
2. Authoritive in the English mother tongue.
3. No doubt as to their verity in the English mother tongue.

Herb Evans;1580605] [jbh28;1579967]

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I'm not confusing time an eternity. I was in Christ when I was saved. I was chosen before the foundation of the world. Ephesians 1 clearly teaches that. you cannot remove the time element from the phrase "before the foundation of the world." and then add time back at "in him" to say when election was. "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:" -- JBH 28

No, you didn't read what I said. You almost appear to be arguing against the passage and not me. We were chosen in him before the foundation of the world. We are not yet in him till we are saved. You are not saved at election. – Jbh28
No, you did not read what I said. You almost appear to be arguing against the passage and not me. You are elect at salvation IN TIME. Before the foundation of the world happens all at once with God, but you are not God; you are finite and not infinite – creature of time. – Herb Evans

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But it is election IN CHRIST and IN HIM that is found in your proof texts before you were saved or ever born. It does not say chosen (note what is missing) before the foundation of the world. – Herb Evans

"yes it does, it says we were chosen in him before the foundation of the world. what does the "before the foundation of the world mean"?– Jbh28
No, it doesn’t! Tit for tat! You kill my dog, I’ll kill your cat. It says chosen IN HIM. Before the foundation of the world means eternity as previously said by me. Chosen for what IN HIM to be holy and without blame. That is what you are ignoring. What does that mean? This one of the two verses that you can cite for your view is not yours. I’m surprised that you use it as opposed to the other. – Herb Evans

Ephesians 1:4 says election was before the foundation of the world.
John 6:37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."the giving precedes the coming. -- JBH 28

So we are chosen in him after being saved....hum – Jbh28
We are chosen IN HIM after we are IN CHRIST. – Herb Evans
so were you saved before the foundation of the world? – Jbh28
No! – Herb Evans
You see the difference. – Jbh28
I see the difference but you do not. Again chosen to what? Not salvation unless IN CHRIST. – Herb Evans
I have a Bible verse, you have to take out a statement. – Jbh28
You have a Bible verse in which you take out the qualification of holiness and without blame. – Herb Evans
Where does it say anywhere in Scripture that election happens after we are saved? – Jbh2h
The same place that it says that election happens before we are saved. The same place that it says those not elected in eternity are damned. Again, Calvinism is not a Bible doctrine, it is a system of sophistic logic, a philosophy. – Herb Evans

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People is what is being given. How and when is through election before the foundations of the world.-- Jbh28

God knew us before we were born. – Jbh28
Yes! But we did not know God before we were born. The trouble with TULIPS is they think they are God with His infinite understanding. God knew about our sin; did He plan our sin before the foundation of the world? – Herb Evans

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It does not say chosen to salvation; its says chosen to be holy and unblameable. You are confused about that as well. So, to cop out and say that is what we are supposed to be, then hear this. Being saved is what we are supposed to be. – Herb Evans

Look Herb, I'm tired of playing your little game. – Jbh28
Then quit playing! – Herb Evans
You do not know what Calvinists really believe. – Jbh28
I know what you believe, and you are a hyper extremist and fatalist. – Herb Evans
you don't even know what tulip really means. – Jbh28
It means fatalistic false teaching any way that you cut it. – Herb Evans
You only know the straw man version of what they believe. You might have been in a Calvinist church, probably by what you have said a hyper calvinist church. – Jbh28
I wrote for the leading Baptist Calvinist paper, “The Baptist Examiner.” All Calvinists are HYPER FALTALISTIC EXREMISTS. – Herb Evans
Unless you can explain what "before the foundation of the world" means, I'm done dealing with this subject with you. You said we were elected after being saved, while Ephesians 1 says we were elected before. (unless you were born before the foundations of the world. – Jbh28
I have explained it, but you do not have the intellect or the spiritual wherewithal or the proper exegesis (rather than eisegesis)to grasp it. If you want out—get out! – Herb Evans

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

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And by the holy Scriptures we understand, the Canonical Books of the Old and New Testament, as they are now translated into our English Mother-Tongue, of which there never hath been any doubt of their verity, and authority, in the protestant Churches of Christ to this day. --The English Orthodox Baptist Confession of 1679

1. Scriptures in the English mother tongue.
2. Authoritive in the English mother tongue.
3. No doubt as to their verity in the English mother tongue.

Its "regardless" irregardless isn't a word... sorry – Jbh28


Sorry, but it is a word in the dictionary – “adv [prob. Blend of irrespective and regardless] nonstand: REGARDLESS.” Still, if you want to turn a theological argument into an English or spelling argument, do it with someone else. – Herb Evans

Herb, JBH is funny. He said: “Its (sic) ‘regardless’ irregardless isn’t a word…sorry.” “Its” is a possessive pronoun. “It’s” is the contraction of “it is” or “it has.” Then he has his word in quotes (“regardless”), and then he uses your word as a real word in his sentence. If he wanted to say it correctly, he would say, “It’s ‘regardless;’ ‘irregardless’ isn’t a word.” But if all this was said before the foundation of the world, who am I to correct it? Thanks for looking the word up, and may all your Scrabble games be won by you. Regards (to gards again),
-Ben

LOL! Well, he is getting a bit irritated as opposed to ritated. It is sad when a fellow tries to correct someone else's English and then ends up with egg on his face. -- Herb Scrabble Evans

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And by the holy Scriptures we understand, the Canonical Books of the Old and New Testament, as they are now translated into our English Mother-Tongue, of which there never hath been any doubt of their verity, and authority, in the protestant Churches of Christ to this day. --The English Orthodox Baptist Confession of 1679

1. Scriptures in the English mother tongue.
2. Authoritive in the English mother tongue.
3. No doubt as to their verity in the English mother tongue.

Herb, did you not see the at the end of the sentence. The them "irregardless is incorrect" It is the dictionary, but says that it is the wrong term. Maybe I should have said it is the wrong term instead of not a word. However, I had the smile at the end. It wasn't supposed to be taken so seriously. I understnad that this is an internet forum, not an English class.

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II Corinthians 1:20 ESV "For all the promises of God find their Yes in him. That is why it is through him that we utter our Amen to God for his glory."

Jude 24-25 ESV "Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy, to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen."

How so, you can't be a fatalists and believe in human responsibility at the same time. Calvinists do no deny human responsibility.
I thought you were saying I was changing the subject. You definition is correct.
ok
No they don't and you know that. This is just a lie. Not everybody takes everything to an extreme. Just because some group of "calvinists" take their doctrine to an extreme doesn't mean that all do. BTW, I have given you examples to prove this.
again, I have given examples to prove what I said.
Ah, you want to make a claim that all Calvinists are extreme or hyper, but don't care to read what they believe. That would explain why you are ignorant of their beliefs.
YES YES YES, for all eternity I have been chosen. Never a time I wasn't chosen. It has been for all eternity.

oops, didn't catch the misspelling. I thought you just said that election was for all eternity. It doesn't say we were chosen when we were in Christ. It says we were chosen before the foundation of the world. Everything was down in Christ. That passage uses the term in Christ or in Him. Everything, including election before the foundation of the world was done in Christ. Again, you remove the "before the foundation of the world" and say the "in him" was a time. That is not what the passage says. If the "in him" refers to time, then what does "before the foundation of the world mean in that passage? What is it referencing to.

no I haven't.
Yes, that is what we are supposed to be. Who are going to be holy and without blame...Christians.
That is not what the passage says. You still ignore the before the foundation of the world. How does that relate to the passage. What does that mean if the "in him" refers to when we were chosen?

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II Corinthians 1:20 ESV "For all the promises of God find their Yes in him. That is why it is through him that we utter our Amen to God for his glory."

Jude 24-25 ESV "Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy, to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen."

Ha, you are the one using eisegesis on the passage. I take the passage for what it says. I don't ignore any area. You have not given any explanation as to what "before the foundation of the world" means TO THAT PASSAGE. You did say it means eternity. I agreed with this, but what is the eternity referring to?

Here is my take on the verse without ignoring ANY part of the passage.
"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him."
1. We(Christians) were chosen. "he hath chosen(past tense) us.
2. How? in Christ "chosen us in him(Christ)"
3. when? before the foundation of the world
4. purpose? to be holy and without blame before him.

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II Corinthians 1:20 ESV "For all the promises of God find their Yes in him. That is why it is through him that we utter our Amen to God for his glory."

Jude 24-25 ESV "Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy, to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen."

Ahh, but you see this ties directly to what Jesus said in John 12:32. ' and I, If I be lifted up will draw all men unto me. First He gives them understanding and then draws them, all of them.



I figured that is where you were going. Yes Paul writes this letter to the church, Jew and Gentile. However, in verses 3-12 he is not speaking of the church, he is speaking of Israel. There are verses in this passage that simply cannot be applied to the Gentiles.

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And let those who are not found living as He taught, be understood to be no Christians, even though they profess with the lip the precepts of Christ; for not those who make profession, but those who do the works, shall be saved, according to His word: “Not every one who saith to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of My Father which is in heaven.

Justin Martyr

The problem with this interpretation is that Jesus said in chapter 6 that all that are drawn(literally to drag. they are moved) are raised up in the last day.




2 things.

First, Salvation is the same both for the Jew and the Gentile. (Romans 10:12)
Second, the passage is to both Jews and Gentiles. It says that in verse 1. There is nothing in the passage where Paul changes to the Jews. Even in verses 3-12, he is still talking to the same people as in verses 1-2.

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II Corinthians 1:20 ESV "For all the promises of God find their Yes in him. That is why it is through him that we utter our Amen to God for his glory."

Jude 24-25 ESV "Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy, to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen."

There is no problem my friend, as I said John 6 is speaking of certain individuals through whom the Gospel would be brought. You see John starts out telling how Christ lights every man, then as he progresses he tells of Jesus telling how certain individuals were drawn and others were not. Then he records Jesus saying that if He is lifted up He will draw all men. Paul also speaks of this blindness or the fact that only certain ones were drawn when he says blindness in part has happened to Israel. he alos tells us that it was done so that the crucifiction could take place. He says if the princes of this world new they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory. I all fits together nicely


Friend, I did not say verse 3-12 were speaking "to" the Jews, I said they were speaking "of" the Jews. These verses are hebrew praise to God, As I said there are verses in this passage that "cannot" apply to the Gentiles.

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And let those who are not found living as He taught, be understood to be no Christians, even though they profess with the lip the precepts of Christ; for not those who make profession, but those who do the works, shall be saved, according to His word: “Not every one who saith to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of My Father which is in heaven.

Justin Martyr