He is pretty amazing because he is also able to tell people what other posters post even while he ignores them.

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Hi Folks,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coverdale I think that the 1560 Geneva Bible's rendering at 2 Peter 1:1 is better and more accurate than that in the 1611 edition of the KJV when compared to the preserved Scriptures in the original languages.

Still waffling about.

Do you make the same claim for the refined editions of the King James Bible, especially the PCE, which do not have the comma discussed above ?

2 Peter 1:1 - King James Bible (PCE)
Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ,
to them that have obtained like precious faith with us
through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

If your answer is yes, please state your basis.
James White ?

Shalom,
Steven Avery

Along with 2 Peter 1:1, the 1560 Geneva Bible also presents the deity of Christ more clearly than the KJV at Romans 9:5.

Romans 9:5b in the 1560 Geneva Bible:
Christ came, who is God over all blessed for ever, Amen.

Romans 9:5b in the KJV
Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

At Romans 9:5, the early English Bibles and many other translations translate the verse clearly to indicate that Christ is "God over all." A note in the Geneva Bible stated concerning Romans 9:5: "A most manifest testimony of the Godhead and divinity of Christ." Concerning Romans 9:5, John Dagg observed: "Christ is here called God; not in some subordinate sense, but over all, and blessed for ever" (Manual of Theology, p. 182). Concerning this verse in the American Baptist Publication Society's American Commentary on the New Testament, Albert Arnold wrote: "We adhere to the simplest and most natural punctuation and explanation of the verse, therefore, and regard it as a direct affirmation of the Godhead of Christ, parallel with John 1:1 and 20:28" (p. 220). John Brown pointed out: "He [Christ] is not only 'over all,' but 'God over all'--God in no Inferior or secondary sense, but, as the prophet says, 'the mighty God' [Isa. 9:6]; as Paul elsewhere says, 'the great God our Saviour' [Tit. 2:13]; and as John says, 'the true God and eternal life' [1 John 5:20]" (Analytical Exposition of Romans, p. 306). Charles Hodge wrote: "Paul evidently declares that Christ, who, he had just said, was, as to his human nature, or as a man, descended from the Israelites, is, in another respect, the supreme God, or God over all, and blessed for ever" (Romans, p. 300). Francis Bassett maintained that this verse (Rom. 9:5) shows “how seriously the teaching conveyed in a group of words may be affected by mere varieties of punctuation” (Examination, p. 64).

The sound basis for considering the rendering of the 1560 Geneva Bible to be better and more accurate at 2 Peter 1:1 than the rendering of the 1611 KJV was already provided. The basis includes most importantly the preserved Scriptures in the original languages, the accurate translation of those preserved Scriptures in the 1560 Geneva Bible and other translations, the marginal note in several editions of the KJV, and the way that the KJV itself translated a similar Greek idiom at 2 Peter 1:11.

All the early English Bibles and many modern translations clearly and precisely identify Jesus Christ as "our God and Saviour" at 2 Peter 1:1. Tyndale, Coverdale, and Rogers translated this verse as "righteousness that cometh of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ." The Great, Whittingham's, Geneva, Bishops', Haak’s 1657 English translation of the Dutch Bible, Wesley's, 1842 Baptist or Bernard's, NKJV, Majority Text Interlinear, and many other translations render it "righteousness of our God and Saviour [or Savior] Jesus Christ." James White maintained that this is the proper translation of the Greek according to the Granville Sharp's rule (King James Only Controversy, p. 268). Granville Sharp cited 2 Peter 1:1 as his first example “of sentences which fall under the first rule, and are improperly rendered in the English version [KJV]“ (Remarks on the uses of the Definitive Article in the Greek Text of the New Testament, p. 20). Concerning this verse in his multi-volume commentary, David Sorenson wrote: “Though it is not quite as evident in English, in the Received Text, the phrase literally reads, ‘the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ’” (p. 228). Kenneth Wuest asserted: “The expression, ‘God and our Saviour’ is in a construction in the Greek text which demands that we translate, ‘our God and Saviour, Jesus Christ” (In These Last Days, p. 17). The 1611 edition of the KJV has a comma after God at 2 Peter 1:1 [God, and our Saviour Jesus Christ]. The first KJV edition printed in America in 1782 and KJV editions printed at Oxford in 1788 and 1795 still have a comma after God at 2 Peter 1:1. How does this comma in some early KJV editions affect the understanding and interpretation of this verse? Concerning this verse in his 1633 commentary on 2 Peter, Thomas Adams observed: “Some read these words by disjoining them; of God, and of our Saviour,“ which would seem to refer to the rendering in the 1611. At 2 Peter 1:1, the 2005 Cambridge edition of the KJV has this note taken from the standard 1762 Cambridge edition: “Gr. of our God and Saviour.” KJV editions printed at Oxford in 1810, 1821, 1835, 1857, 1865, 1868, and 1885, and at Cambridge in 1769, 1844, 1872, and 1887 also have this same note. Granville Sharp observed: “in the margin of our present version the proper reading is ‘of our God and Saviour,‘ manifestly referring both titles to one person” (Remarks, p. 22). James Scholefield maintained that this verse has “the same construction as in verse 11” where it was rendered in the KJV as “of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ” (Hints, p. 157). A. T. Robertson wrote: “In 2 Peter 1:11 and 3:18, the pronoun ’our’ comes after ’Lord,’ but that makes no difference in the idiom. It is ’our Lord and Saviour,’ and it is so translated in the English versions. But we have precisely the same idiom in 2 Peter 1:1, ’our God and Saviour Jesus Christ’” (The Minister, p. 63). Robertson asserted: “The idiom compels the translation, ’our God and Saviour Jesus Christ” (p. 64).

Hi Folks,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coverdale The sound basis for considering the rendering of the 1560 Geneva Bible to be better and more accurate at 2 Peter 1:1 than the rendering of the 1611 KJV was already provided.

My question to you very specifically was not about the KJB 1611 (a version for which I even gave a verse where the argument for greater precision in the Geneva was clearly strong) -- I specifically asked you about the refined King James Bible I read and embrace, without the comma.

Answer first the question asked.

And then, if you expand your assertion, indicate which arguments you accept as true.

And we know that if you quote men, that does not mean that you accept their arguments as either partially or fully true. Often you have distanced yourself from quotes you have provided,.

We have even seen you give knowingly false quotes as supposed 'valid evidence' on many threads -- so simply quoting a few scholars who disagree with other scholars means next to nothing. The critical issue is truth, not dueling scholars.

What are the exact arguments that you present as your own, that you have a firm conviction are true and will defend. Or if you simply lean to their accuracy, but consider the issues still open, you should so indicate. Tell us why you would you accept those particular arguments against scholars who may offer a differing view, and whether you have a conviction that you will defend or a scholastic preference.

If you state that clearly, then we can have a basis for discussion.

Shalom,
Steven Avery

Hi Folks,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coverdale Along with 2 Peter 1:1, the 1560 Geneva Bible also presents the deity of Christ more clearly than the KJV at Romans 9:5. Romans 9:5b in the 1560 Geneva Bible: Christ came, who is God over all blessed for ever, Amen. Romans 9:5b in the KJV Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Romans 9:5
Whose are the fathers,
and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came,
who is over all,
God blessed for ever.
Amen.

Do you claim that the Geneva Bible is more faithful to the source texts ?

Please indicate clearly if you do, and on what basis.

Shalom,
Steven Avery

In this case the Geneva is faithful to the source texts, it is also more faithful to the context.

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According to one of the rules given the KJV translators, what truth of the original language texts demanded that the KJV translators change the clear and accurate rendering of the 1560 Geneva Bible and other pre-1611 English Bibles at 2 Peter 1:1?

It seems that KJV-only posters can provide no evidence that shows that the KJV's rendering at 2 Peter 1:1 was more accurate or was an improvement over the rendering in the 1560 Geneva Bible.

Here is someone who seems to support the KJV's rendering. John Wilson, likely an Unitarian, claimed: "two passages (Titus 2:13, 2 Pet. 1:1) are admitted by many supporters of the doctrine of Christ's deity to be of very doubtful application, particularly in the common version of the Bible [the KJV]" (Scripture Proofs and Scriptural Illustrations of Unitarianism, p. 34). He would be unable to make that claim concerning the rendering of the 1560 Geneva Bible at 2 Peter 1:1.

Why should you ignore the fact that the comma at 2 Peter 1:1 remained in claimed "carefully edited" KJV editions for over 150 years? It is part of the historical basis or foundation of the modern KJV edition you "embrace." The comma may indicate the intended interpretation of the KJV translators themselves since the two KJV translators that helped edit the 1638 Cambridge edition do not seem to have removed it.

Perhaps removal of the comma makes the KJV's rendering a little better, but it is still not as clear and accurate as the rendering of the 1560 Geneva Bible when compared to the preserved Scriptures in the original languages.

Please stop misrepresenting Coverdale. He put a comma after God too, didn't he?