I was reading Protestant Biblical Interpretation by Bernard Ramm (classic hermeneutics textbook). I came accross a great quote that I thought would be pertinent for this forum. Check it out in my siggie:
“The most fundamental presupposition of the philological method in Biblical exegesis is that all exegesis must be done in the original languages if it is to be competent and trustworthy exegesis…
The interpreter who interprets Scripture only in his modern language is always working with a linguistic veil between himself and original texts. And he never knows how thin or how thick this veil is.” – Bernard Ramm, Protestant Biblical Interpretation
It could be 100% true...if not for the Holy Spirit.
He went on to speak about the ability of a translation being capable to convey the message. But as far as exegesis is concerned, the Holy Spirit does not illuminate indiscriminately. Part of His illumination is the interpreter doing the leg work of Bible study. In this case, the ultimate form of study is done in the original languages. IMO anyhow...
“The most fundamental presupposition of the philological method in Biblical exegesis is that all exegesis must be done in the original languages if it is to be competent and trustworthy exegesis…
The interpreter who interprets Scripture only in his modern language is always working with a linguistic veil between himself and original texts. And he never knows how thin or how thick this veil is.” – Bernard Ramm, Protestant Biblical Interpretation
This is exactly right on! It is strange for KJVOs to argue against the idea that exegesis involves dealing with the Original Languages when the very word "exegesis" is Greek
Perhaps their refutation of the idea simply emanates from their lack of knowledge of the languages. No one wants to be told they lack the ability to do full exegesis.
__________________ Simply observing the floccinoccinihilipilification of the KJVO movement.
Actually I think you might go a step further. You can set up forums and simply exegete one to another in Greek or Hebrew or various other languages and Bible believers who read the pure Bible in English will do very fine in your absence.
You can Greekify each other about what verse is good or bad or indifferent .. maybe, if you try out your skills real hard, some day you can even determine if the resurrection account of the Lord Jesus in the Gospel of Mark is scripture or not. Or at least "assign it a probability" as well as "God was manifest in the flesh .. ". It is funny to imagine folks who do not even know what the scripture is trying to claim that they are at a high level of exegesis of the unknown.
Granted .. I tend to doubt that you are at any level of real Greek competence, where you have native language proficiency and discussion and debate skills. Maybe some day.
Anyway .. do you consider the writings of Bernard Ramm himself as an example of the insights of Greek-speak ?
Actually I think you might go a step further. You can set up forums and simply exegete one to another in Greek or Hebrew or various other languages and Bible believers who read the pure Bible in English will do very fine in your absence.
You can Greekify each other about what verse is good or bad or indifferent .. maybe, if you try out your skills real hard, some day you can even determine if the resurrection account of the Lord Jesus in the Gospel of Mark is scripture or not. Or at least "assign it a probability" as well as "God was manifest in the flesh .. ". It is funny to imagine folks who do not even know what the scripture is trying to claim that they are at a high level of exegesis of the unknown.
Granted .. I tend to doubt that you are at any level of real Greek competence, where you have native language proficiency and discussion and debate skills. Maybe some day.
Anyway .. do you consider the writings of Bernard Ramm himself as an example of the insights of Greek-speak ?
Shalom,
Steven Avery
How is it that if we mock KJVO's for their views, we are using ad hominem, but when you snark, Avery, it is scholarly discussion? To be honest, Steven, your true colors are becoming more and more evident. You can no longer rebuke anyone without being convicted of hypocrisy.
I also find it to be very ironic that you seem to hold to the opinion that we are unable to ascend to a knowledge of Greek today to the extent that the KJV translators had. The irony is, you have no knowledge of Greek yourself in which to qualify objectively any level of Greek.
I will grant you that my Greek proficiency is not up to the level of the native language proficiency. However, I feel comfortable in my proficiency in Greek as well as in the discussion and debate arena. But that's why I'm going to school.
As far as Bernard Ramm is concerned, he is an example of a great hermeneutical theoretician whereas I am seeking to be an exegetical practitioner (and an expositional orator). Hermeneutics, while extremely important to theology and exegesis, ulitimately comes down to philosophical and philological pursuits. I am more concerned with theological and exegetical pursuits.
“The most fundamental presupposition of the philological method in Biblical exegesis is that all exegesis must be done in the original languages if it is to be competent and trustworthy exegesis…
The interpreter who interprets Scripture only in his modern language is always working with a linguistic veil between himself and original texts. And he never knows how thin or how thick this veil is.” – Bernard Ramm, Protestant Biblical Interpretation
How is it that if we mock KJVO's for their views, we are using ad hominem, but when you snark, Avery, it is scholarly discussion? To be honest, Steven, your true colors are becoming more and more evident. You can no longer rebuke anyone without being convicted of hypocrisy.
And I simply offered the simple and obvious counterpoint to the lauding by a couple of neophyte Greekies of their great insight. And your infatuation with a rather dumb quote of Ramm. If you can not take the heat ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by timotheos
I also find it to be very ironic that you seem to hold to the opinion that we are unable to ascend to a knowledge of Greek today to the extent that the KJV translators had. The irony is, you have no knowledge of Greek yourself in which to qualify objectively any level of Greek.
That is not necessary to read and understand that the Reformation study level (Geneva, Amsterdam, Oxford, Cambridge) and dedication to the classical languages makes your level (rest taken out .. it is an insult to those men to even compare you and the modern seminary environment).
Fifty men, iron sharpeneth, in an environment way above that today, in the two top universities in the world, without the distractions of media and publish and perish and arcane studies on nothings and this and that .. believers that the Bible is truly the word of God .. in a time when the early church writers were read voraciously daily and the languages became natural and native to the scholars. The Christian Hebraist movement in full swing, quite mature. Latin and Greek on the tongues of the scholars without struggle, those who know languages do not have to spend hours parsing an aorist or spliting and infinitive .. the languages are native and full proficiency is the basis of reading, speaking, lecturing, debating and translation. A one-time event in world history.
You can start with simply the McClure book on the translators and read about their skills .. then when you have a Greek debate on a campus I will try to come, if you can set up headphones with translation. I know if I studied for 30 years I would never touch the proficiency of the 50 learned men, God has placed his hand on their work, and my time is limited and to be valued.
Quote:
Originally Posted by timotheos
I will grant you that my Greek proficiency is not up to the level of the native language proficiency.
Of course not. Which is why you need a gazillion grammars and lexicons and computer lookups, gasping and grasping after the 'insights' of men like the petty and vicious Eugene Nida to "correct" the Reformation scholars, to 'teach' you that monogenes really means only or unique.
Maybe after you live in Greece and hang out in the cafes in Athens for a few years you will begin to actually know the language a little (yes, I know .. Biblical Greek, modern Greek, a yada and a yada).
Quote:
Originally Posted by timotheos
As far as Bernard Ramm is concerned, he is an example of a great hermeneutical
What do you think of his connection with Karl Barth and his approach to "inerrancy" ?
After all, these are the fruits of what you consider his great insight.
Did he know if the resurrection account of the Lord Jesus was written by Mark and is scripture ?
How about "God was manifest in the flesh .. " .
Scripture ?
Or only a corruption that is accidentally the wonderful teaching about the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ.
We know you do not know, how about Ramm ?
Shalom,
Steven Avery
Last edited by Steven Avery; 11-02-2009 at 09:16 PM.
Case and point about the snark. Whatever heat you think you're bringing has to be a misconception on your part. But I can't take your attitude anymore. Your posts are not worth my time. I'm adding you to my ignore list for a while. Maybe in a little while you can drop the snarky attitude and have a professional dialogue... maybe.
“The most fundamental presupposition of the philological method in Biblical exegesis is that all exegesis must be done in the original languages if it is to be competent and trustworthy exegesis…
The interpreter who interprets Scripture only in his modern language is always working with a linguistic veil between himself and original texts. And he never knows how thin or how thick this veil is.” – Bernard Ramm, Protestant Biblical Interpretation
And I simply offered the simple and obvious counterpoint to the lauding by a couple of neophyte Greekies of their great insight. If you can not take the heat ...
Actually, Avery set the standard by stating that he would gladly turn over these discussions to those who have 20 years of experience in Greek. When he found out that he set his own standard too low, he still knee jerked. Avery has only "driven a Yugo" so there is no way he can appreciate "the feel of leather in a Cadillac."
Quote:
Maybe after you live in Greece and hang out in the cafes in Athens for a few years you will begin to actually know the language a little (yes, I know .. Biblical Greek, modern Greek, a yada and a yada).
This reveals complete ignorance.
__________________ Simply observing the floccinoccinihilipilification of the KJVO movement.
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Great Quote! Check it out...
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