Since the book by the late Jaroslav Pelikan is recent scholarship about the Reformation Bible, it is helpful to see the simple and excellent manner in which he uses the most proper phrasing (even while he is not a defender of the Reformation Bible against the modern textual criticism confusions .. he tends to write around the textual issues a bit).
First a bit about Jaroslav Jan Pelikan.
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Jaroslav Pelikan http://jaroslavpelikan.blogspot.com/
"If Christ is risen - then nothing else matters.
And if Christ is not risen - then nothing else matters."
Jaroslav Jan Pelikan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaroslav_Pelikan Jaroslav Jan Pelikan (December 17, 1923-May 13, 2006) was one of the world's leading scholars in the history of Christianity and medieval intellectual history.
Book Description:
Pelikan... then examines the changing patterns of interpretation and communication of the biblical text, the proliferation of vernacular versions of Scripture and their impact on various national cultures, and the effect of the Reformation Bible on art, music, and literature of the period.
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We will look at how he discusses the Reformation Bible in various countries.
The most important Czech Reformation Bible is the so-called Kralice Bible, which informed the literary language in much the same way that Luther's translation had influenced German. (p. 151)
.. the final revised version of its New Testament in 1613, at almost exactly the same time as the Authorized Version in English (p. 57)
prohibition of vernacular Bibles by the Inquisition in both Portugal and Spain .. The translation of the New Testament into Portuguese was carried out by Joao Ferreira d'Alameida and its first edition appeared in Amsterdam in 1681. (p. 62)
a Spanish Bible by Cassiodoro de Reina ... and then by Cyprian de Valera, La Biblia .. in Switzerland at Basel ... The translators explicitly differentiated it, therefore, from Roman Catholic translations based on the Vulgate. (p. 62)
The history of the German Bible and the history of the German Reformation are so intertwined that neither history can be understood without the other p. 50
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In this next section is a discussion of the English Bible and the 1611 Preface.
Bibles For the People
Reformation theology and practice of biblical Translation
It is an almost irresistible contrast with Roman Catholic Italy to point out that in the German, English and Czech homelands of the Protestant Reformation that honor of having effectively codified the vernacular language must be awarded, in significant measure, to Reformation translations of the Bible .. the language of Biblical faith (p. 42) ....
That preface of 1611 spoke for all Reformers when it declared:
"But how shall men meditate in that, which they cannot understand ?.." (continues)
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And Pelikan knows well the text of the Reformation Bible and that the Reformation Bible labours essentially began with Erasmus.
By common consent, the most influential achievement of the "sacred philology" of Christian humanism was the edition of the Greek New Testament that Erasmus published in 1516. (The Christian Tradition: Reformation of church and dogma (1300-1700) p.306 )
Stephanus .. first Greek Bible, the Novum Testamentum Graece .. was in many ways a great improvement over the editions of Erasmus .. formed the basis of the Greek Textus Receptus (p. 17)
This is discussed in more depth in "Sacred Philogy" in "The Reformation of the Bible" in p. 15-21
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Shalom,
Steven Avery
Last edited by Steven Avery; 11-02-2009 at 10:13 AM.
The problem I have, as clearly addressed in the OP, and followed up on my next post, is that Avery is writing his own version of the phrase when he said: "And the purity and perfection and majesty of the Reformation Bible manifests fully in the Holy Bible, the Authorised Version, the King James Bible."
The other versions which were definitely part of the Reformation should happily use the term "Reformation Bible." To suggest the KJV is the full manifestation of the Reformation Bible is simply KJVO prejudice. Especially when the KJV came at the very end of the Reformation. Is it based on Reformation texts? Certainly. Did it have an effect on the Reformation? Hardly.
But, once again, this thread shows that Avery cannot ignore us and will simply butt into a debate without considering what has been said and quoted.
I think that some KJV-only advocates know that they are attempting to misuse and misapply the term "Reformation Bible" in order to use it to defend their inconsistent man-made KJV-only theory.
they are attempting to misuse and misapply the term "Reformation Bible"
You have to be a bit of a literary incompetent to not realize that:
"And the purity and perfection and majesty of the Reformation Bible manifests
fully in the Holy Bible, the Authorised Version, the King James Bible."
Is my personal view and opinion and conviction .. and that I have clearly pointed out very specifically that many scholars and writers use the proper phrase "Reformation Bible" who do not accept the Reformation Bible text as the pure Bible !
It would be difficult for me to make that clearer in the pages above.
Now, very many writers could be marshaled who declare the literary excellence of the King James Bible, the translational excellence is well understood and the reliance on later more refined Received Text source texts is also easy to understand. However that being said, a writer is surely allowed to place his own view in a research and writing as in the pages above.
Amazing..
Remember, the original attack on the phrase "Reformation Bible" is now shown to be fully 'inopertive', and worse it was combined with the nonsensical claim that the Reformers only had a negative view of the Latin Vulgate (essentially that they did not have the positive, tangible Bible text that they affirmed). The good thing about the silliness is that it spurred a little more checking to show how powerful and clear and accurate is the phrase "Reformation Bible" for the historic Bible, of which the King James Bible is the pure and perfect exposition. So I hope my brethren will consider the phrase, using it where it fits properly.
So .. watch out for the flying gnats ... so that the strainers don't end up needing bed rest and maybe some muscle therapy or an adjustment. Please help these poor readers, apparent victims of the modern American educational and seminary systems. Maybe they need some remedial reading and comprehension classes.
Shalom,
Steven Avery
Last edited by Steven Avery; 11-02-2009 at 10:43 AM.
"And the purity and perfection and majesty of the Reformation Bible manifests
fully in the Holy Bible, the Authorised Version, the King James Bible."
Is my personal view and opinion and conviction .. and that I have clearly pointed out very specifically that many scholars and writers use the proper phrase "Reformation Bible" who do not accept the Reformation Bible text as the pure Bible !
We know it is your opinion. However, they do not call the KJV the full manifestation of the Reformation Bible.
Quote:
You have to be a bit of a literary incompetent to not realize that...Please help these poor readers, apparent victims of the modern American educational and seminary systems. Maybe they need some remedial reading and comprehension classes.
Those who ignore the actual subject and discussion of threads/posters ought not make these absurd claims. We know that Avery must now rely on adhominems since his ability to debate intelligently on this thread has now dissipated. However, Avery still avoids answering the obvious question and point I have made throughout this thread: "What affect did the KJV have on the Reformation?"
__________________ Simply observing the floccinoccinihilipilification of the KJVO movement.
the usage of the proper phrase 'Reformation Bible'
Hi Folks,
Note that 'Reformation Bible' usage can exist on 2 levels:
A 'doctrine of grace' Calvinist can use the phrase as an affirmation of their specific doctrinal views through the Reformation Bible.
Any evangelical (Protestant, Baptist, etc) can use this as an affirmation of the Bible that historically helped bring us forth out of rcc paganism.
The two are complementary and not exclusive, they refer to the same Bible text.
Now that the scholarship and casual usage of the phrase Reformation Bible is established, the question arises - are there any other terms that should be mixed with the phrase "Reformation Bible" to describe the text-form and historical Bibles that have been read by millions - Tyndale, Geneva, KJB, Reina-Valera, Kralice, Alameida, Luther, etc.
Their are varous problems with the less descriptive "TR-based" -
This term is:
#1) attacked - "the term did not exist till 1633", "why do you say it is received" "modern 'scholars' have 'received' the decrepit W-H text".. etc.
#2) includes inferior 'modern' translations like the NKJV and Young's
#3) is far less clear as to the historic lineage
#4) is an awkward hyphen construction, since TR is simply the Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek texts
Thus, for many usages, the phrase "Reformation Bible" is the most superb description. If you have alternatives of note, feel free to share away.
I agree with Coverdale . . . if any Bible has the right to be called the "Reformation Bible," it's the Geneva Bible - which was translated by expatriate English and Scottish Puritans living in Geneva, with the assistance of John Calvin himself.
A case could also be made for the Wycliffe and Tyndale Bibles being "Reformation Bibles," as well.
As for the KJV, I'd call it about the 5th revision of the "If You Can't Beat 'em Join 'em Anglo-Catholic Bible."
__________________
Take care,
Scott >>>Minion of BASSENCO<<< as outed by Shiloh
"In the heat of composition I find that I have inadvertently allowed myself to assume the form of a large centipede. I am accordingly dictating the rest to my secretary." - C. S. Lewis
Nicely put Ransom...
I think the Puritans who struggled against the Church of England through the days of the Reformation would have taken issue with calling the KJV the "full manifestation of the Reformation Bible."
__________________ Simply observing the floccinoccinihilipilification of the KJVO movement.
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Jaroslav Pelikán - The reformation of the Bible, the Bible of the Reformation
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