The element of surprise is the tactic that the staff like to use to manipulate a member. One time a few years ago when my son was in high school, a girl and a guy liked one another. The parents didn't care, they knew but kept them in line and told them to keep things quiet about their feelings at the church and school. Now these kids were seniors in high school.
Bro. Bob got several of the classmates to confess that these two like each other although they showed no sign of attraction at the church.
They decided to call a meeting with this couple, the classmates and the parents. It was all to be a surprise. Well one of the classmates told another and soon the secret, surprise meeting was out and my son decided to let the couple in on the meeting.
Dr. Gray, on a Thursday night (I will never forget it) cornered my son in the hallway and stuck his finger in his chest (HARD) and told him he was a rebel and that if this couple went wrong, particularly the boy, that he (my son) would be responsible and have to answer to God for it. I'll never forget how mean Dr. Gray was and how he told me that I had raised a rebelious, God hating son.
I guess this is not a official "office" meeting, lets call it a hallway meeting.
To make a long story short, this couple married (7 years now) have two children and remain our friends to this day.

The dating "rules" at LBT have always troubled me. I don't see how it is healthy for couples to NEVER speak to each other in high school. (Speaking to the opposite sex is considered a date in high school at LCA. IMHO - this is why so many teens from LBT, go crazy after they leave high school. They have never learned how to properly interact with the opposite sex.) Then in college, they are allowed to date with the approval of the administration. (I remember getting demerits for sitting with a boy in church. I got demerits because sitting together in church is considered a date, and we didn't have permission slips. It didn't matter that we had permission from my parents who lived there!) Then, they go from chaperoned (sp?) dating, which I don't have a problem with, BTW, to getting married, without ever even holding hands. Now, I don't think that a whole lot of experimenting needs to go on. But I think that some lattitude for engaged couples should be allowed. But to make it to the alter, without ever touching or even being alone, and all at once young people are supposed to be comfortable consumating a marriage - Talk about weird!!!!

BTW, Were the "dating" rules ever written down? If they were, I am sure that they were subject to change.:rolleyes:

Personally, I don't know that many who actually went through the whole thing without so much as holding hands, but maybe there are some. I wasn't one!!:D

I was a rule keeper when it came to dating. What little dating I did was ultra repressed in my mind. I missed some opportunities for a lot of enjoyment in my younger years. This prolly sounds bad but if I had it to do over again I would rather be one of the "bad" kids.

I was a rule keeper when it came to dating. What little dating I did was ultra repressed in my mind. I missed some opportunities for a lot of enjoyment in my younger years. This prolly sounds bad but if I had it to do over again I would rather be one of the "bad" kids.

I am not trying to say that I was "bad" when it came to dating. I also do not want my kids to think that it is "ok" to be "bad" when it comes to dating. I just think that there can a better way. I totally endorse double dating, and chaperoned dates for teens. I think that very serious, and engaged couples should have more latitude than young teen age couples. Hand holding, riding in the car, and moderate kissing, IMHO, are acceptable for serious or engaged couples. But I still think that you can do that, and be pure when you marry your spouse. You just have to learn SELF CONTROL!! (Which, BTW, we have seen that some pastors and church leaders, in many churches, have not obviously learned.) When I look back at the areas that I deviated from the "dating rules" at LBT, I can see that I was very normal, and could in no way be considered a "bad" kid! I was pure when I got married, and I have no regrets.

I was so brainwashed by LBT that I never tried to date a single girl in college. We were told that these girls were unacceptable. Meanwhile back at LBT, everybody I knew either got married or left or both. The rest were under orders from Bob Gray not to talk to me or have anything to do to me. I still marvel that I stayed there four years after high school.

Wasted years.


P.S. I was ostracized at church because I was exactly as I am now, only toned down a good bit more, for fear of the Jews.

I obeyed the dating rules, pretty much! :D

Seriously, I did during college. Even after I graduated, I didn't kiss my wife until the week of the marriage. My wife is the only woman I have ever kissed and I didn't want to look like a goof on the wedding alter, so I had to practice a tad!

About 2 or 3 weeks after graduation, we were about to be seperated for 3 months while she prepared for the wedding back home and I went off to work, so the last day we were together, we tried to give each other at least a good bye hug! It didn't really work out to well, but it led to some minor hand holding 3 months later, and just a few days before the wedding. We were engaged and only days from our wedding. I understand exactly what Texas Toaster is saying. Balance is key. Teen boys and girls have no business in car alone when they are daing in the 9th grade, but a couple of 24 year old college graduates who are engaged and getting married in a week out to at least be able to hold hands! Right? :-) I don't feel "bad" at all. We remained pure and gained a great deal of understanding and foresight for our own kids. :-)

Dr. Hyles always joked and said that he and Bev kissed before they got married but there wasn't a Hyles-Anderson College back then.......if it is good for the goose.....! And then there is much else to say about that!

Movin' on: why is tattle-telling equated with spirituallity? :-) Stinkin' Sycophants!

Kevin

You slip her the tounge, Kev? :p :p

You slip her the tounge, Kev? :p :p

Now that was rude!:eek:

Movin' on: why is tattle-telling equated with spirituallity? Kevin

I'm not Movin', but.....
This is an excellent question. But as I am sure that you remember Kevin, tattling is somehow equated with spirituality at LBT. The idea is given, that if you know someone who is "sinning" if you tell the preacher, you are helping that person in their spiritual life. That if one person in the camp is sinning, then there are probably others, so lets tell everyone from the pulpit so we can root out this evil. You know, " Smite the scorner, and the simple will be made wise."
What it really comes down to at LBT, and maybe other places, but I can only speak from my experience, is this: The tattler gets, at the least, brownie points and sometimes total exhoneration(sp?) from any "sinful" activity. And Dr. Gray gets fodder for his sermons, and leverage against his members.

However, as I read my Bible, if I know that someone is sinning, I am to go to that brother/sister privatly, not publicly, and confront them about it, pray with them,and earnestly for them. As I have studied this, I see also that If they confess their sin to God, it is forgiven, forgotten, buried in the deepest sea, etc. I may have this wrong, but I don't see anywhere, where the sins of lay people are to be broadcast from the pulpit, and gossiped about behing office doors. (of course if a lay person is breaking the law, that should be brought to the attention of the authorities that can do something about it) I do see where, in the Bible, that sins of church leaders are to be addressed publicly, but somehow, that gets dealt with behind closed doors. * I know that this is not ALWAYS the case - but it has been in many*

The truth is, that LBT's idea of being spiritual is so skewed, that they look like pharisees. Just look at the list of Don'ts that the pharisees had, then compare that the the LCA/TBC handbook. I am not talking about sexual purity, or big issues like that. I mean the things like what christain music is ok to listen to, what earings to wear, how short does short hair have to be? The list goes on and on. Jesus said "If you love me, keep my commandments." What was Jesus' commandment you may ask?? - Love the Lord God with all your heart, mind and soul. Love your neighbor as yourself. Do everything to the glory of God. Jesus said that the world would know that we were his disciples because we "LOVE EACH OTHER" not because we keep a list of rules and tattle on each other!

You go Texas Toaster, I can see how much you have grown spiritually in your new church. I have been tattled on way too many times, when called to the office you are not asked what? or why? or if it really happened. You are told that someone saw it and that is the end of it! I always asked who told, sometimes I was told but most of the time I was not made privy to the person who told on me. I think that is because I would confront that person and tell them if they had a problem with me then come to me!

It begins in the Longview Public Library. I took my daughter up to the library to "study". Of course, I knew that she was really wanting to meet up with a male classmate. Meeting up consisted on watching one another from across the library and sometimes "accidentally" being in the same aisle looking for a book.
His parents where at the library and I was at the library, his parents also knew what was going on. So we began to talk with one another, laughing about how studious our children had become. We began walking out the door, me with my brood and him with his parents all of us taking, they walked beside each other, not ever saying a word to each other with his family on one side and me on the other.
A teacher happened to be at the libray too, in fact anytime there was a report due or a book reort books to be checked out, one of the staff would be at the library. I guess meeting at the library is an old LCA trick, wink, wink.
The teacher wasted no time running to the Preacher to tattle. By the time Dr. Gray called us into the office, those two had been seen "sitting too close and holding hands at one point in the evening". I was livid! I demanded (I hate to use that word because it sounds like I yelled, but I did not. I was firm) to be told who said all those lies. Dr. Gray told me and I immediately confronted Mrs. Thompson about what she saw, she stammered and stumbled over her words. I proceded to inform her that I was there, she apparently had eyes only for my daughter and her beau and never saw me or his parents. I took her to Dr. Gray to clarify the story, Dr. Gray was so angry at what I had done, number one because he was pinpointed for saying things that Mrs. Thompson did not say and number two he looked foolish and like a liar.
But of course, I was the bad guy and Mrs. Thompson was the good guy because "she cared about these two kids so much" puke, puke, puke!
From the pulpit I was a rebel for questioning the pastor and staff, and a stupid (yes he used the word stupid) parent for not allowing these two to get in trouble, because everyone knows the story about Scott being mistreated in school as a teenager, but it was good for him, blah, blah, blah. Mrs. Thompson was stood up in church and praised for being such a wonderful teacher and how caring she was, yuck!

You slip her the tounge, Kev? :p :p

if you"re gonna kiss, might as well do it right...right?:D :eek:

Toaster was right!

Ted, that is for me know and you and Dr. Miller not to find out!

Didn't I already tell you.......
















































































Oh, I didn't! Then it's nunya!

:-)

All I can say is SoS 4:11 is a great verse!

Kevin

I too posted a tattler story. See the new thread about Lance and Sandi!

Movin'on! Again, I no longer care who you are. It doesn't matter. BUT, why do you want to conceal your identity so badly, but you drop names of others so freely? Just curious.

I applaud (sp) you for confronting your accuser. Is that not our right as Americans to face our accusers? I wish Lance had just come to me about the tape; I was preached at for having a tape of a singer I DIDN'T EVEN LIKE. I never listed to Sandi Patti; I had only heard that particular tape because my sister listened to it and that was only little bits and pieces of songs here and there. I never listened to it because I wanted to and it accidently ended up in my room and I was nailed for being a Christian Rock fan! I hate Christian rock and ESPECIALLY Sandi Patti! No chance to explain myself; I know exactly what you are talking about! Oh Well! Crap occurs!

Baptize 7 and tatlle on 2 and that makes you spiritual! Not said, but practiced! Just don't knock down awnings with buses!

Kevin

You do so care and you know it! I am not a bad person, I am not your enemy I am just someone who reads your posts and am totally confused at your responses. You know the "I know that Dr. Gray is a bad person but I pray that God blesses his ministry..."??? What is that all about? Are you praying more people will go to LBT and be hurt? Do you think a large crowd equals Gods blessing? Benny Hinn has a huge following, does that mean God is blessing his ministry? Because a person makes less money, does that mean God is not blessing him as much as the wicked rich man? Just some thoughts!

Didn't I say I wasn't going to continue in this thread...or was that another thread. I can't remember.

I never said "I know Bob Gray is bad but blah blah.

I don't care who you are and this is a stupid arguement! If I didn't say I will not respond in this thread again, I am saying it now. Get over being confused by me. It doesn't matter!

Good night. See ya in another thread.

Kevin

kevin wrote...
Ted, that is for me know and you and Dr. Miller not to find out!


For our first date, I took my future wife to see the animated film The Prince of Egypt. Getting started off with a biblical movie seemed like a good idea. We then went back to my apartment so I could loan her some book on classical apologetics (smooth move). I didn't get her home until five the next morning.