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Originally Posted by Herb Evans
JBH . . . the issue was not about human responsibility. Herb Evans
It became that when you mentioned fatalism. -- jbh
No, it did not become that; you manipulated and forced it to be that. Calvinists are fatalists irregardless of human responsibility. Herb Evans
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Its "regardless" irregardless isn't a word... sorry
Anyway, yes fatalism and human responsibility are opposites. They can't BOTH be in the picture.
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Again, JBH, the issue was not whether Calvinists evangelize or not. All Calvinists are fatalists. Why invent straw men? Herb
Nothing I said was a straw man. jbh28
When you change the subject and the issue, it is a straw man. Herb Evans
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Actually, that is a red herring if I change the subject. A Straw man is when you misrepresent your opponents view. you know, like say P means something it doesn't and then argue against the made up view of P.
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What makes Calvinists fatalist is their insistence that God planned before man ever existed that only the pre chosen elect could be saved and that others would be damned and that there are some living today that could never have been saved. Herb Evans
Everyone chooses to sin before and after salvation. It is laughable that you should say that they never could have been saved because of them, when you say it was all predetermined. I dont see anywhere that God chooses folks to go to heaven or hell except through repentance and faith. You want to blame the negative destiny on folks but oppose anything that involves the positive destination by them, like repenting and believing. Yes, I know what you believe the non-elect cannot believe or repent but they can sin. Herb Evans
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They cannot because they don't want to. You choose based on your desires. EVERY choice you have ever made has been based on what you wanted most at that moment with the options available to you. No man wants to seek Christ. no man can come to Christ without the drawing of God. You can laugh all you want, but it is very biblical what I just said. The Bible is very clear the condition of man before he is saved. The Bible in many times speaks of choosing people to heaven. I have given them to you already.
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this is just plain ignorance. how can all by hyper? Do you not understand what hyper means. Go do some study on what Calvinist believe. JBH 28
Yup! TULIP all inclusive fatalism makes them all inclusive HYPER, whatever meaning you care to assign to it in your ignorance. Herb Evans
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Nice comeback.... Was that your best?
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Hyper Calvinists are those that take the doctrines of Calvinism to an extreme. you can't have "hyper" to all. doesn't make sense.
All TULIPS take their doctrine to an extreme. Therefore, they are all hyper. Herb Evans
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Again, you are ignorant of what Calvinist believe. Not all take it to an extreme. I gave you an article from a Calvinist demonstrating the difference. But like you always do, you ignore what the Calvinist say they believe. you would rather make up something they do not believe.
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Yes, things referenced to us are in time. That is why when God said when we are chosen, He put it in time "before the foundation of the world." Jbh28
LOL! There was no time before the foundation of the world onlyeternity. It is only God that inhabited eternity in His every present present with no past or future. Now if you, as GOD, want to inject our past, present, or future into eternity, that is your problem. Herb Evans
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You keep ignoring the fact that it says before the foundation of the world. What does that mean? Were you choosen when you got saved? Well, if that is true, then did you get saved before the foundation of the world?
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Then we have been elect for all eternity. You must do something with "before the foundation of the world." You can't just thought it out the window. Jbh28
Unfortunately, you still do not get it. IN CHRIST! IN CHRIST! -- Herb Evans
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I have not ignored in Christ or in Him. You are ignoring the before the foundation of the world. We were chosen in him. This doesn't mean we are already saved. Or already in him, we are chosen before hand in him and will be in him later. Why do you continue to ignore the "before the foundations of the world"?
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I'm not confusing time an eternity. I was in Christ when I was saved. I was chosen before the foundation of the world. Ephesians 1 clearly teaches that. you cannot remove the time element from the phrase "before the foundation of the world." and then add time back at "in him" to say when election was. "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:" -- JBH 28
You admit the when you were in Christ when you were saved. Therefore you were not IN CHRIST before the foundation of the world (eternity). Therefore, it is you that is removing the in Christ from the chosen in eternity and putting it INTO TIME. You cannot have it both ways. Herb Evans
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No, you didn't read what I said. You almost appear to be arguing against the passage and not me.
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We were chosen in him before the foundation of the world. We are not yet in him till we are saved. You are not saved at election. Jbh28
But it is election IN CHRIST and IN HIM that is found in your proof texts before you were saved or ever born. It does not say chosen before the foundation of the world. Herb Evans
"yes it does, it says we were chosen in him before the foundation of the world. what does the "before the foundation of the world mean"?
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Ephesians 1:4 says election was before the foundation of the world.
John 6:37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."the giving precedes the coming. -- JBH 28
The giving does precede the coming, but you do not establish what the giving is that takes place or how and when. Herb Evans
Ok good, we agree that that giving precede the coming, which means election takes place before salvation. Jbh28
No, we do not agree on that. Election takes place IN CHRIST after being saved. Herb Evans
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So we are chosen in him after being saved....hum so were you saved before the foundation of the world? You see the difference. I have a Bible verse, you have to take out a statement. Where does it say anywhere in Scripture that election happens after we are saved?
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People is what is being given. How and when is through election before the foundations of the world.-- Jbh28
People did not exist before the foundation of the world, so how could they be given then? God decreed that election would be IN CHRIST, when they were found IN CHRIST. Herb Evans
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God knew us before we were born.
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It does not say chosen to salvation; its says chosen to be holy and unblameable. You are confused about that as well. So, to cop out and say that is what we are supposed to be, then hear this. Being saved is what we are supposed to be. Herb Evans
what else is it talking about then. Paul is talking to Christians. This must be your "cop out" answer. Just pretend it isn't talking about election. You look too busy trying to be a anti-calvinist, that you will ignore Scripture just to be that way.
Keep your short articles by others and write your own. I have been dealing with Calvinists for over 45 years. The first church that I joined after being saved and moved to Florida was a Calvinist church. I wrote for the Baptist Examiner, a Calvinist periodical for many years and read it for more years than that. I know what Calvinists believe. Herb Evans
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Look Herb, I'm tired of playing your little game. You do not know what Calvinists really believe. you don't even know what tulip really means. You only know the straw man version of what they believe. You might have been in a Calvinist church, probably by what you have said a hyper calvinist church. Unless you can explain what "before the foundation of the world" means, I'm done dealing with this subject with you. You said we were elected after being saved, while Ephesians 1 says we were elected before. (unless you were born before the foundations of the world.