Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Woltmann
OK: lets use your definition to time. However much I still think it is in no way even close to defining it completely. It is just one small aspect to illustrate time but by no means a final definition.
|
As you can't provide a definition, you have no grounds for asserting this.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by DW
God has no changing ideas or thoughts therefore he is not confined to time. Since God is not confined by time you take that to mean that He determines the beginning to the end and there in not will of man because man being in time can not have a will or he or she would be God. Talk about circle reasoning.
|
No, I think I just whooped you in the last post so you have to contrive my beliefs to mean something other than that which I've clearly stated.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Knight
I think you are rejecting determinism by propping up the "robot" strawman. There is no incompatibility between a determined or caused will and a voluntary ("free" or "uncoerced" or "unforced") will. Choice is simply an execution of the will, and the will is predicated on one's strongest desires. By manipulating our desires through direct (e.g. regeneration) or secondary (e.g. ordaining evil spirits to tempt) causes, God causes what we will without violating the function of the will. Besides, robots don't have intellect or emotions. Your argument is dubious, and even if it weren't, it would not prove the concept is unbiblical.
|
I didn't state this proves God determines all things, I stated this disproves your argument that determinism is incompatible with men choosing and willing. Respect me enough to put more effort into your replies, if you please. Or just shut up, and then neither of us will have to account for your straw men.
Either way, I stated determinism is a necessity because God cannot simultaneously be eternally omniscient and also have His knowledge cannot be contingent on contingent creatures. I explained why that is the case right here:
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Knight
When I object to your contention that God knows an autonomous will logically prior to observation, in so doing I am directly contradicting the compatibility of your understanding of God's omniscience with God's eternality. Either He knows our deeds via observation - a rejection of eternal omniscience, for His knowledge would be contingent on a contingent creature - or He causes all things, in which case our wills are not autonomous. You can't have it both ways, and unless you submit a valid definition of time and eternity such that it is biblical and compatible with God's omniscience and the concept of autonomous men, then you have yet to address my argument.
|
If you cannot rebut this objection, that's one thing. But to lie and call it circular is another.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by DW
Let us go back to the Biblical order of salvation.
1. Sin first
2. God's Word reveals truth (this is the written Word about the Living Word; Jesus Christ)
3. Word presented by a sent one: a person who obeys God by giving the word out.
4. People then hear the Word; whether this is by physical ears or eyes or any other form of communication needed for a person to understand the Word.
5. This person believes; this is something that takes place within view and acknowledgment of the mind of understanding by means of the work of the Holy Spirit revealing the truth and the drawing of the Father.
6 This person calls on the name of the Lord.
All of these takes place in time; no matter how you want to define time.
|
Agreed.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by DW
At one point in time ( no thought of God... thought of God; using KNIGHT definition) I was changed.
|
Realistically, this is true (because God caused our decision). In the synergistic system, however, in which God does not cause our will, He necessarily knows of our acceptance of His word de facto by observing our acceptance of His word... which, again, is to say that His knowledge is contingent on ourselves (and we are contingent on Him), which is to say He knows via observation, which is to say He learns, which is to deny His eternal omniscience.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by DW
I wasn't saved, I am now saved. Did God have to wait for that time to save me or not?
|
Monergistically, no. Syergistically, yes.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by DW
Did I have a choice at that time not to call on Him or not?
If I or anyone else did not have a choice or a will on anything then I feel that God has a cruel way of using the word "will" throughout the Bible.
|
You would choose in even if He saved monergistically. To imply otherwise is to ignore another very clear argument I made:
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Knight
You are attempting to monopolize the use of choice as though it necessarily contains the capacity to choose other than what we do. That begs the question, however, as "choose" is used in the very definition of "choose."
You have problems validly defining your terms.
|
This isn't a discussion if I'm the only one interacting with what's being said.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by DW
"whosoever God make toto call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" "with the heart which God makes man believe and with the mouth which God makes to confessis made unto righteousness. "For God so loved some people in the world that He gave is only begotten Son that whosoever God makes tobelieve in Him shall not perish but hath everlasting life that God made you have
|
Again, you have not demonstrated that determinism is incompatible with choice and will, and you haven't even defined will (!), so I'm just going to laugh.
[quote=DW}I am not saying I have all the answers but if someone picked up a Bible and did not go to some fancy Seminary[/QUOTE]
Why does everyone think I go to seminary? I don't go to seminary. I've thought about it but have not.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by DW
...and read John 3:16 he might actually believe that he had a choice.
|
He does! And if He kept reading through to Romans 9, He might actually believe choice and determinism are not incompatible, as I have shown.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dw
... if God makes me will then I have no will.
|
Do you know what a bare assertion fallacy is? You're being intentionally ignorant.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by DW
Order of salvation takes place in time and involves a choice of man and never affects God's sovereignty because He is outside of time and never affected by time.
|
You don't address the incompatibility between God's eternal omniscience and autonomy, so repeating your stupid comments is not helpful in the way of dialogue.